. Forum

[Mack.Hambleton]

you've made really misleading (and some outright false) statements in this thread – for what? to hype up a school you haven't even started classes at yet?
just admit you were wrong. don't join the feces hurling crew with that bc clown because you think you'll "win" the argument
you can't spend hours flooding the thread with fake stats and then pretend you're above it all when you're called out for your bs

Nah I calculated some stuff wrong, but the fact that penn out places uva by a significant amount (13%) is what I was trying to establish

[03152016]

i'm not pulling this out of thin air man
if you don't believe me, go back and read your posts, and then my long one
this is going in circles, and we're in the on topics, so i'm just going to leave it at that

[AreJay711]

there are plenty of firm gigs that pay $80k-120k and have 1600 billable hour requirements.

Can you name 5?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's probably just the hivemind in me saying that I thought those jobs were truly unicorns and didn't actually, like, exist. I would think lots of people would self-select into them, that's basically the type of place every single 0L says they want to work at when they make a choosing thread.

I graduated last year and have friends/ acquaintances-I-could-grab-a-drink-with at these firms, that all meet that requirement:

Fox Horan & Camerini LLP
Lennon, Miller, O'Connor & Bartosiewicz, PLC
Whiteford, Taylor & Preston LLP
linowes and blocher llp
Miles & Stockbridge

The thing is, they might not hire every year, but there are a huge number of firms like this. Some of those firms haven't hired people other than the people I know there in years. It's just much easier to go to biglaw firms.

[smaug]

Also I'm afraid you will kidnap and murder me

you've made really misleading (and some outright false) statements in this thread – for what? to hype up a school you haven't even started classes at yet?
just admit you were wrong. don't join the feces hurling crew with that bc clown because you think you'll "win" the argument
you can't spend hours flooding the thread with fake stats and then pretend you're above it all when you're called out for your bs

qfnp

[gnomgnomuch]

OP,

Take the money and run. Also, your debt at UVA can actually be LESS than what you've already talked about if you get a 2L SA, which you most likely will get. If you're frugal enough, you can cut a good 15k of that debt.

Then when you start big-law after graduation (a reasonable assumption since median at UVA should get big-law, even if it's not V10/20) and the fact that you've gotten a Dillard. Then, you can reasonably pay off the remainder of your debt within a year and a half. After that you can just save up money and transition out of big-law (if you hate it, which most people do.)

As to the argument about UVA/Penn:

Sure, Penn seems to be a better school, but only marginally. The added security it provides isn't worth an extra 74k of debt (and that is before interest starts piling on) when UVA seems to offer roughly the same outcomes.

UVA - 63% of students receive what TLS considers the "optimal" outcomes, which is BL + FC. (13 and 50.)
Penn - 69 of students receive what TLS considers the "optimal" outcome, which is BL + FC (9 and 60.)

Is that 6% difference really worth 74k (and closer to 100k once you factor in interest) of added debt, when you might in the future wholeheartedly HATE your job? If there are pressing reasons, such as a wife and kid that can't move, for taking Penn, fine. Otherwise, the "enjoyment" you think you'll get more at Penn than at UVA, is probably not as real as you'd imagine it to be. And even if it were, it's not like we're talking about you HATING your three years at UVA.

[Law Sauce]

C-ville is the best yo, can't believe that ppl are acting like Penn would be a more fun place to go to school.

[ymmv]

C-ville is the best yo, can't believe that ppl are acting like Penn would be a more fun place to go to school.

UVA is the right choice, but this is stupid.

[Tiago Splitter]

The thing is, not only isn't biglaw the end all, it usually isn't even the best outcome. There are clerkships and PI, but honestly even at firms, there are plenty of firm gigs that pay $80k-120k and have 1600 billable hour requirements. You might think $80k is leaving a lot on the table, but that's 40k after taxes and PAYE and most people would say it's worth working 800 fewer hours (2/3 realization). That's 2 1/2 more hours free each work day, assuming you take 2 weeks of vacation and work 6 days a week. Maybe you'd work more, but then you'd be chasing a bonus.

So you'd be paying $74k more for a worse outcome with Penn. You won't be able to avoid the pressure.

Come on dude. This is stupid. Don't tell people that those who miss biglaw end up in sweet firm gigs paying 80k for 1600 hours. UVA placed 12 out of 349 grads into firms of 26-100 attorneys.

[Clearly]

The thing is, not only isn't biglaw the end all, it usually isn't even the best outcome. There are clerkships and PI, but honestly even at firms, there are plenty of firm gigs that pay $80k-120k and have 1600 billable hour requirements. You might think $80k is leaving a lot on the table, but that's 40k after taxes and PAYE and most people would say it's worth working 800 fewer hours (2/3 realization). That's 2 1/2 more hours free each work day, assuming you take 2 weeks of vacation and work 6 days a week. Maybe you'd work more, but then you'd be chasing a bonus.

So you'd be paying $74k more for a worse outcome with Penn. You won't be able to avoid the pressure.

Come on dude. This is stupid. Don't tell people that those who miss biglaw end up in sweet firm gigs paying 80k for 1600 hours. UVA placed 12 out of 349 grads into firms of 26-100 attorneys.

because the rest went to biglaw

jk

[twenty 8]

If it’s true that Penn is #1 in placing grads with high paying firm employment and UVA is #10, then your decision is clearly about the tuition debt burden. Why not select a well ranked school (perhaps even top 25) and forgo tuition debt 100%?

BTW: I am biased against schools that use SFJ (law school's hamburger helper) to make their outcomes look more attractive than they are.

[Clemenceau]

If it’s true that Penn is #1 in placing grads with high paying firm employment and UVA is #10, then your decision is clearly about the tuition debt burden. Why not select a well ranked school (perhaps even top 25) and forgo tuition debt 100%?

Dude has a dillard..

[R. Jeeves]

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[The King]

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[Mack.Hambleton]

thanks everyone, i just deposited at UVA, and I think that's where I'll end up.

Congrats!

[MC819]

thanks everyone, i just deposited at UVA, and I think that's where I'll end up.

Congrats! Excited to meet our Dillard class!

[BruceWayne]

This thread seems settled but I just want to briefly say that I don't think some posters understand the big cultural differences between a school like UVA and Penn that heavily affects placement. People at Penn probably overwhelmingly want NYC biglaw. A lot of people at schools like UVA (like Boalt and Michigan for example) actually view that as a BAD outcome. I don't even mean neutral--a lot of us consider that to literally be a negative outcome. A lot of people who go to a place like UVA are trying to work in Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Charleston, Birmingham, Nashville, Miami, New Orleans, VA Beach etc. And when I mean trying I mean " if we don't get those cities we will be unhappy with going to law school and very irritated if we end up in NYC". I don't think you understand just how heavily that's going to affect big law only focused placement. Even if MOST students at UVA who want to end up in those places get their first choice job in said markets that's going to heavily set back big law only focused placement. I mean how many firms in those markets do you think come anywhere near that 500 + attorneys bracket that Penn is beating UVA on by an amount that isn't gargantuan to begin with? You have to think about this when comparing say Cornell to Boalt or Michigan to Penn.

[BillClinton Jr]

Take the money and run. UVA is a quality school and it's worth the minor debt you'll have compared to Penn.

[smaug]

This thread seems settled but I just want to briefly say that I don't think some posters understand the big cultural differences between a school like UVA and Penn that heavily affects placement. People at Penn probably overwhelmingly want NYC biglaw. A lot of people at schools like UVA (like Boalt and Michigan for example) actually view that as a BAD outcome. I don't even mean neutral--a lot of us consider that to literally be a negative outcome. A lot of people who go to a place like UVA are trying to work in Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Charleston, Birmingham, Nashville, Miami, New Orleans, VA Beach etc. And when I mean trying I mean " if we don't get those cities we will be unhappy with going to law school and very irritated if we end up in NYC". I don't think you understand just how heavily that's going to affect big law only focused placement. Even if MOST students at UVA who want to end up in those places get their first choice job in said markets that's going to heavily set back big law only focused placement. I mean how many firms in those markets do you think come anywhere near that 500 + attorneys bracket that Penn is beating UVA on by an amount that isn't gargantuan to begin with. You have to think about this when comparing say Cornell to Boalt or Michigan to Penn.

with this attitude it is shocking that you struck out, Bruce

i honestly believe that anyone who wants biglaw should either make some form of peace with NY or not go to law school. its the modal outcome many places, not just CLS/NYU/Penn. If you're not OK with the modal outcome, you should probably reconsider what you're doing.

[TLSModBot]

Going into law school, yes. If you manage to get top 10% in a t14 going into OCI then you've got some room for choice.

I bid only DC from GULC - if I didn't have the grades that would've been suicidal. You might have a lower grade threshold at Penn or UVA, but there's no guarantee you'll get the grades.

[AreJay711]

The thing is, not only isn't biglaw the end all, it usually isn't even the best outcome. There are clerkships and PI, but honestly even at firms, there are plenty of firm gigs that pay $80k-120k and have 1600 billable hour requirements. You might think $80k is leaving a lot on the table, but that's 40k after taxes and PAYE and most people would say it's worth working 800 fewer hours (2/3 realization). That's 2 1/2 more hours free each work day, assuming you take 2 weeks of vacation and work 6 days a week. Maybe you'd work more, but then you'd be chasing a bonus.

So you'd be paying $74k more for a worse outcome with Penn. You won't be able to avoid the pressure.

Come on dude. This is stupid. Don't tell people that those who miss biglaw end up in sweet firm gigs paying 80k for 1600 hours. UVA placed 12 out of 349 grads into firms of 26-100 attorneys.

Idk, I'm just basing it on my anecdotal experience at a different school. You also need to consider the people at non-Art III clerkships who end up in these kinds of positions. And some of the people I know making 80k are at firms with less than 26 attorneys. It's not the case that bigger = more money.

[Tiago Splitter]

The thing is, not only isn't biglaw the end all, it usually isn't even the best outcome. There are clerkships and PI, but honestly even at firms, there are plenty of firm gigs that pay $80k-120k and have 1600 billable hour requirements. You might think $80k is leaving a lot on the table, but that's 40k after taxes and PAYE and most people would say it's worth working 800 fewer hours (2/3 realization). That's 2 1/2 more hours free each work day, assuming you take 2 weeks of vacation and work 6 days a week. Maybe you'd work more, but then you'd be chasing a bonus.

So you'd be paying $74k more for a worse outcome with Penn. You won't be able to avoid the pressure.

Come on dude. This is stupid. Don't tell people that those who miss biglaw end up in sweet firm gigs paying 80k for 1600 hours. UVA placed 12 out of 349 grads into firms of 26-100 attorneys.

Idk, I'm just basing it on my anecdotal experience at a different school. You also need to consider the people at non-Art III clerkships who end up in these kinds of positions. And some of the people I know making 80k are at firms with less than 26 attorneys. It's not the case that bigger = more money.

The number of people even from your school in these positions is still really small: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... more/2013/

The bigger point though is that you act like people should be happy to strike out. "Why would you want biglaw just do a small firm where you make 80k and bill 1600 hours." I'm with you on why these positions would be better than biglaw for many people, but they don't exist in large numbers for new grads and as a result they aren't the easy fallback we'd all love to have.

[AreJay711]

The number of people even from your school in these positions is still really small: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... more/2013/

The bigger point though is that you act like people should be happy to strike out. "Why would you want biglaw just do a small firm where you make 80k and bill 1600 hours." I'm with you on why these positions would be better than biglaw for many people, but they don't exist in large numbers for new grads and as a result they aren't the easy fallback we'd all love to have.

I'm questioning, essentially, whether people are striking out in significantly greater numbers, or are just not stepping up to the plate.

Biglaw absorbs most people because it needs bodies and that's an easy path (who is going to turn down biglaw to roll the dice if they actually wanted biglaw?), but I think at certain schools people shoot for those firms in higher numbers. Three things about your stats: 1) I wonder if that includes bonuses. One of my boys makes like ~$65k but is getting over $80k with his bonus. 2) A lot of the $135k is midlaw. They don't lounge with 1600 hours, but they aren't pushing 2400 hours either. 3) I'm actually below the 25%, but I'm doing a SSC and then fed clerk. My co-clerk has had no problem finding that midlaw ship. We'll see about me.

[BruceWayne]

This thread seems settled but I just want to briefly say that I don't think some posters understand the big cultural differences between a school like UVA and Penn that heavily affects placement. People at Penn probably overwhelmingly want NYC biglaw. A lot of people at schools like UVA (like Boalt and Michigan for example) actually view that as a BAD outcome. I don't even mean neutral--a lot of us consider that to literally be a negative outcome. A lot of people who go to a place like UVA are trying to work in Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Charleston, Birmingham, Nashville, Miami, New Orleans, VA Beach etc. And when I mean trying I mean " if we don't get those cities we will be unhappy with going to law school and very irritated if we end up in NYC". I don't think you understand just how heavily that's going to affect big law only focused placement. Even if MOST students at UVA who want to end up in those places get their first choice job in said markets that's going to heavily set back big law only focused placement. I mean how many firms in those markets do you think come anywhere near that 500 + attorneys bracket that Penn is beating UVA on by an amount that isn't gargantuan to begin with. You have to think about this when comparing say Cornell to Boalt or Michigan to Penn.

with this attitude it is shocking that you struck out, Bruce

i honestly believe that anyone who wants biglaw should either make some form of peace with NY or not go to law school. its the modal outcome many places, not just CLS/NYU/Penn. If you're not OK with the modal outcome, you should probably reconsider what you're doing.

Stupid people are so confusing: so are you assuming that I "struck out" more because you just make a lot of aSSumptions? Or is it more like reading comp stupidity where you read some of my posts and just couldn't comprehend what I was saying/tried playing Mr. Magoo but couldn't piece together the clues? I'm confused because there are just too many options in terms of stupid reasons for your incorrect assertion.


On another note it's also amazing how many people on here don't realize that A LOT of people don't view NYC as the goal at all. Whether you agree with it is not what I'm trying to get at. But rather that you need to realize that it's true and that it heavily affects the placement of a lot of the non NYC metro area located schools. On top of that let me raise something that lot of people on here exaggerate just a bit. NYC is the easiest market when NOT TAKING OTHER VARIABLE INTO ACCOUNT. To be honest with you. For a lot of people with the sort of backgrounds that you find at a UVA, Michigan, Boalt, etc. sort of school, i.e. people who spent their whole life in a non NE/DC part of the country and with a resume that screams that, NYC really isn't that much easier than their home market as some on here lead you to believe. Honestly, some of these NYC firms don't like seeing a super Southern/Midwestern/Texas/whatever non NE centric resume as you think. Which I actually can totally understand why they wouldn't. Whereas someone with a very Southern resume who attends Duke for example will get a decent bit of love in the South if he/she takes the time to actually resume bomb/bid on those firms. I know A LOT of people like that who ONLY ended up with job offers in their home regions--NO NYC OFFERS AT ALL. Those markets literally ended up being what saved them from unemployment.

[smaug]

I assume you struck out because I remember you posting in the vale and complaining a lot.

If you did indeed strike out, I think it's because you're (1) pretty dumb and it wouldn't shock me if you did poorly and (2) didn't fully grasp the rules of the game you're playing.

Being absolutely opposed to working in NYC, unless you're a stellar candidate is an example of that, Bruce.

I know A LOT of people like that who ONLY ended up with job offers in their home regions--NO NYC OFFERS AT ALL.

I'm sure this is true. I also wonder which firms they were targeting in NYC compared to which firms they were targeting in the south, their grades, how strong of an interviewer they are, &c.

My point is simply that if you (1) want to work in biglaw or something like it and (2) are absolutely opposed to NYC and (3) are not otherwise a stellar candidate, it's going to be tough for you.

That shouldn't be shocking for anyone.

Also, because you perpetually dodge this—did you get an offer through OGI, Bruce?

[smaug]

bruuuce