Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

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racic22s
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Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby racic22s » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:01 pm

Hi everyone!

I applied to Harvard, Duke, UVA, Georgetown, and University of Michigan. I was accepted everywhere except UVA (waitlisted), and currently I'm stuck between Harvard (my dream school) and Michigan, and would appreciate some advice.

I'm having major stress right now about financial aid. I just received my preliminary award from Harvard today, and they aren't going to offer me anything because they only do need-based aid, and my parents' resources are too great (even though they're not going to pay!).

This has put me in quite a debacle. Harvard is BY FAR my first choice. I'm from NH and want to stay in New England (and cheer for all my Boston sports teams), and I have my heart set on Harvard's dual degree program with Cambridge in the UK, which I really can't get anywhere else. The only temptation is that the University of Michigan has offered me a Dean's Award of 40,000 a year in grants, renewable for each year. That makes it an enormous financial difference between the two schools.

I was hoping to use the award from Michigan as leverage to at least get something from Harvard, because I know it's in the their best interest statistics-wise if I accept admission, but I saw in my email from Financial Services that they said they will not consider merit offers from other institutions, only need-based ones that show a radically different need calculation and their own. The Michigan award was awarded right after I was admitted, and due to its size, bars me from applying for any additional need-based aid there.

I'm unsure if Financial Services tends to stay pretty true to its word on not budging from their preliminary offer based on other school's merit awards, or if that's just lip service in an attempt to deter whiny people like me. I'm just so bummed about the big difference between 40K from Michigan and absolutely nothing from my dream school. I know that Harvard does offer low income loan repayment assistance post-graduation, but still the prospect of so, so many loans is a bit daunting.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp! :cry: :cry: :cry:

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rpupkin
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:08 pm

Apart from your desire to cheer on Boston sports teams, what are your goals?

Also, it's pretty obnoxious to close your post with a string of crying/sad emoticons when you're deciding whether to attend HLS or a good law school with a substantial scholarship. Get over yourself.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:11 pm

Never heard of someone successfully negotiating with Harvard and they explicitly say they won't but go for it I guess?

Are you asking which one you should attend? You need to provide more info like career goals, etc (all the stuff in the sticky on the top of the choosing forum)

Why did you only apply to 5 of the T14?

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:13 pm

you need to give more info

also why did u only apply to 5 schools

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racic22s
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby racic22s » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:28 pm

BigZuck wrote:Never heard of someone successfully negotiating with Harvard and they explicitly say they won't but go for it I guess?

Are you asking which one you should attend? You need to provide more info like career goals, etc (all the stuff in the sticky on the top of the choosing forum)

Why did you only apply to 5 of the T14?


I don't have super specific career goals right now. My main interests are in Intellectual Property (the copyrights side, not patents) and International Business. I'd like to work within the legal department of a major publishing house, particularly one with a transatlantic presence (like Houghton, Mifflin, Harcourt headquartered in Boston) or within a major legal firm that focuses on copyright, again particularly with an international scope. What most appeals to me about Harvard is their option of a dual JD/LLM with Cambridge in the UK, which actually has its own International Intellectual Property track and could position me well to practice in the UK for an international firm. True, it's a competitive program though that only takes up to 6 a year.

I only applied to 5 of the T14 as those were the only 5 that I was solidly interested in. Location is important to me, and I wanted to stay on the East Coast. I don't want to be in New York. I looked at Yale, but it didn't appeal to me. Initially I wasn't even thinking about Michigan, but after they bombarded me with a bit of mail, I started to fall in love a bit with the campus environment and there is a woman's college alum connection with the dean of admissions, who's been great to contact. Unlike Harvard, there's not any unique programs there that jump out at me, and it's not in an area where I'd like to stay long term (if I had to pick somewhere in the US to settle, it would by far be Boston), though I know that attending there doesn't mean I'd have to be placed in the area.

I want to go to Harvard. Michigan is more "meh." However, it seems like the more practical position financially. Harvard's COA is 85K a year, Michigan with the grant would be about 30K (factoring living into both of them).
Last edited by racic22s on Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:32 pm

You really should have applied to Princeton law. That was your first mistake.

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pamphleteer
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby pamphleteer » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:34 pm

Could you elaborate on why Princeton didn't appeal to you?

071816
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby 071816 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:36 pm

recommended course of action: decline all offers, rescind all applications, and ED Pontifical Catholic next cycle.

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rpupkin
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:45 pm

chimp wrote:recommended course of action: decline all offers, rescind all applications, and ED Pontifical Catholic next cycle.

Chimp is joking, of course, but his advice--except for the ED Pontifical Catholic part--isn't bad. You seem very young. I think you would really benefit from taking a year or two off. Perhaps consider working for a couple of years in a publishing house.

I'm not trying to insult you. You are obviously very intelligent and you probably have a promising professional future ahead of you. But, to be really honest, I'm not sure you are mature enough to make this very important decision. Why don't you take a couple of years to grow and learn a little more about the world and yourself? Law school will still be there.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:50 pm

i hate to break it to you but michigans not on the east coast

legalmindedfellow
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby legalmindedfellow » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:26 pm

Hi. I'm not from either of these schools and have no dog in this fight. But I'll try...

As other posters noted, this doesn't sound like you've fully thought a lot of this through. If you're interested in these areas, and have the stats for Harvard, why not Stanford? If you're interested in a dual degree with a program in Cambridge, why exactly? Couldn't you pursue that first? (Plenty of people get masters' in the UK before attending law school in the US). That in fact might even clarify your interests.

What I don't hear here is a plausible plan for what you would do, say, 1L or 2L summer, or what you see yourself doing upon graduation. Would you go straight to in-house counsel? (This happens, but it's quite rare). Are you familiar with the publishing industry? And why, as someone else noted, does Michigan count as East Coast?

And practicing in the UK... why exactly is that a goal when you've also stated a geographical restriction within the US? What's keeping you away from the West Coast that allows you to spend time at Michigan or the UK?

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:42 pm

Michigan
Not close

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FSK
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby FSK » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:53 pm

If you can describe with reasonable particularity a job you can actually attain right out of school in either copyrights or international business, go to harvard. But I bet you can't, and I bet you need to take a number of years off nad fiure that out.

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Serett
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby Serett » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:56 pm

If anyone ever writes a postmortem for the law school-industrial complex, it needs to be subtitled, "Smart People Making Dumb Decisions."

Edit: To be somewhat helpful, if we're pretending these two are your only choices, Michigan. If you have a full-ride from any T14, do that. Ideally, you would've applied to more for a higher chance at this. If you do have a full-ride to any, use it to negotiate with your preferred school that isn't Harvard (apparently Michigan). Also use the Harvard acceptance to negotiate with the lower T14.

Or beg your parents for money because Harvard.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:24 am

Why did you not apply to the rest of T10? Laziness? Harvard at sticker/Michigan at 40k a year are both solid options. From your posts, it sounds like you're just gonna deposit at H anyway, and in that case, good luck.

wons
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby wons » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:58 am

Just to be clear, you want to work in international business, preferably in publishing, but not to work in NY where all the publishing houses, and most transatlantic-type businesses generally are located?

EDIT to note that 2 minutes of googling confirms that the US offices of all of the big 4 publishers - Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Random House, Hachette are in NYC. OP should do this sort of diligence before sinking $250k in their education!

What I sort of pick up from OPs post is that they want to work in London but don't come out and say it explicitly. So responding on that basis: it can be easier to get a job in London than in many US cities, as the London offices of many US firms aren't that selective. But the drawback is that the work you can do as a U.S. trained lawyer in London, and Europe generally, is quite limited. For example, on the corporate side you'll be stuck doing a lot of securities. If you want to work in a city with a big international business presence, preferably publishing, but not New York, I don't think you should be going to a U.S. law school.

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racic22s
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby racic22s » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:55 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:Why did you not apply to the rest of T10? Laziness? Harvard at sticker/Michigan at 40k a year are both solid options. From your posts, it sounds like you're just gonna deposit at H anyway, and in that case, good luck.


I have a 176/3.96. Harvard was my reach; the others were safetys. I only applied to places that interested me.

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bretby
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby bretby » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:07 am

racic22s wrote:Hi everyone!

I applied to Harvard, Duke, UVA, Georgetown, and University of Michigan. I was accepted everywhere except UVA (waitlisted), and currently I'm stuck between Harvard (my dream school) and Michigan, and would appreciate some advice.

I'm having major stress right now about financial aid. I just received my preliminary award from Harvard today, and they aren't going to offer me anything because they only do need-based aid, and my parents' resources are too great (even though they're not going to pay!).

This has put me in quite a debacle. Harvard is BY FAR my first choice. I'm from NH and want to stay in New England (and cheer for all my Boston sports teams), and I have my heart set on Harvard's dual degree program with Cambridge in the UK, which I really can't get anywhere else. The only temptation is that the University of Michigan has offered me a Dean's Award of 40,000 a year in grants, renewable for each year. That makes it an enormous financial difference between the two schools.

I was hoping to use the award from Michigan as leverage to at least get something from Harvard, because I know it's in the their best interest statistics-wise if I accept admission, but I saw in my email from Financial Services that they said they will not consider merit offers from other institutions, only need-based ones that show a radically different need calculation and their own. The Michigan award was awarded right after I was admitted, and due to its size, bars me from applying for any additional need-based aid there.

I'm unsure if Financial Services tends to stay pretty true to its word on not budging from their preliminary offer based on other school's merit awards, or if that's just lip service in an attempt to deter whiny people like me. I'm just so bummed about the big difference between 40K from Michigan and absolutely nothing from my dream school. I know that Harvard does offer low income loan repayment assistance post-graduation, but still the prospect of so, so many loans is a bit daunting.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp! :cry: :cry: :cry:



I don't see why you think you can't negotiate with Michigan. $40,000 is a lot, but you could get them up to a full ride if you negotiated well.

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NoLieAbility
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby NoLieAbility » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:08 am

racic22s wrote:I have a 176/3.96. Harvard was my reach; the others were safetys. I only applied to places that interested me.


Sit out a cycle. Research tactics for successful negotiations. Reapply next year with those tactics in mind.

Not at all a flame. Your results, while great for the vast majority of people, are terrible for you. Your numbers are in Ruby/Hamilton territory.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:11 am

Did Duke offer any scholarship award ? Have you tried to negotiate with Duke ?

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:12 am

NoLieAbility wrote:
racic22s wrote:I have a 176/3.96. Harvard was my reach; the others were safetys. I only applied to places that interested me.


Sit out a cycle. Research tactics for successful negotiations. Reapply next year with those tactics in mind.

Not at all a flame. Your results, while great for the vast majority of people, are terrible for you. Your numbers are in Ruby/Hamilton territory.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:14 am

When you're above both medians for Yale, no school is a reach. I'm willing to bet mylsn puts your numbers at like 80% for Harvard. That is not a reach percentage. You're either above or at both 75 percentile medians for H actually. You were as guaranteed an accept as can be, only thing missing is URM status.

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racic22s
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby racic22s » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:25 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Did Duke offer any scholarship award ? Have you tried to negotiate with Duke ?

Michigan offered me the award before I even applied for financial aid. Once I received the award from Michigan, Duke became less attractive to me, though I could apply for aid from Duke and use it as leverage to negotiate up with Michigan. Yet, that's still not going in the direction I'd like to go in (Harvard). I've contacted Harvard in an attempt to negotiate with them, even though it is a long shot.

I have considered sitting out the cycle and reapplying next year, but worry that Harvard would be like, "We admitted you last year and you turned us down, gtfo." :?

And yeah, as the poster figured, I'm not URM. I'm also not K-JD and have been out of school for two years.

Harvard does have a really interesting loan repayment program. If you graduate and are making less than 46K (yeah I know, not exciting), they'll make ALL your loan payments for you. If you make between 46-86K, you pay 20% after the 46K. If you make over 86K, you pay 90% over that number.

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NoLieAbility
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby NoLieAbility » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:40 am

racic22s wrote:I have considered sitting out the cycle and reapplying next year, but worry that Harvard would be like, "We admitted you last year and you turned us down, gtfo." :?


Have you ever heard the term "mark" as it applies to a person in a negotiation?

You've got aptitude. You need to acquire sophistication.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard (at sticker) v. Michigan with 40K a year?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:05 am

Just go to Harvard. You're obviously not going to listen to the valid points people are making here and you obviously will be going to Harvard at sticker. So just go to Harvard.




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