Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

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GULC v UMich?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:26 pm

GULC
18
35%
UMich
33
65%
 
Total votes: 51

User1855
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Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby User1855 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:23 pm

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Last edited by User1855 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sneezus
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby sneezus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:32 pm

Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC. Michigan also places well in NYC. in my mind, Mich is worth the 30k more than GULC here.

don't let a random anonymous poster's subjective perception of a school they don't actually attend influence your choice. that is stupid.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:33 pm

Current GULC student here. Absent more info indicating 'sit out n retake', I'd say go with UMich.

1. UMich *may* be suffering a lapse but GULC certainly isn't doing better. UMich will always outplace GULC.
2. You say you don't want to stay in DC. This town is barely sufferable for the people who LIKE it here, why do that to yourself especially if you might end up back here for DC Biglaw?
3. "oppressively liberal" = just fucking lol. I have no idea what the 'learning environment' is but it's fucking law school. No one cares about your politics, no one is going to stuff an ideology down your throat unless you seek it out, and whatever cultural flavor that exists isn't going to influence the core of what they teach you or how people view you.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby LSATneurotic » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Save thirty grand and go to GULC. they aren't far enough apart in terms of outcomes to justify so much cash. Use that 30k to buy a new http://www.roushperformance.com/i/vehicles/lifestyle-2015-rs.jpgmustang when you graduate

hearsay77
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby hearsay77 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:47 pm

sneezus wrote:Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC.


Out of curiosity, which numbers are you referring to exactly? GULC increased from 33% to 36% placement into 500+ atty firms from 2013 to 2014, and Mich went from 37% to 34%. If you're looking at 100+ atty firms, GULC went from 41 to 45% and Mich went from 49 to 43%. Am I totally misunderstanding something? I'm genuinely curious because I too am considering these two schools.

User1855
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby User1855 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:49 pm

Thanks folks - I hadn't considered the liberalism determinative until I read Michigan's c/o 2018 thread today. It's good to hear some other (you all's) opinions.

And btw, I'm a splitter so pretty happy with my results. I don't think sitting out and retaking will help much.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:53 pm

hearsay77 wrote:
sneezus wrote:Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC.


Out of curiosity, which numbers are you referring to exactly? GULC increased from 33% to 36% placement into 500+ atty firms from 2013 to 2014, and Mich went from 37% to 34%. If you're looking at 100+ atty firms, GULC went from 41 to 45% and Mich went from 49 to 43%. Am I totally misunderstanding something? I'm genuinely curious because I too am considering these two schools.


Looking at BigLaw (100+ att'y) + Federal Clerkships / Total Students:

UMich: 210/390 - 53%
GULC: 303/626 - 48%

Also consider that GULC has a larger percentage of school-funded positions (73 to Umich's 33), skewing overall hiring somewhat further.

User1855
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby User1855 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:58 pm

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Last edited by User1855 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby LSATneurotic » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:00 pm

User1855 wrote:Anyone think UMich students' self-selection into PI is a real thing? So one's probability of getting BL if they actually want it is in fact higher than the employment stats suggest?

Michigan's not even T-10 anymore. Might as well go to Georgetown.

hearsay77
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby hearsay77 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:01 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
hearsay77 wrote:
sneezus wrote:Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC.


Out of curiosity, which numbers are you referring to exactly? GULC increased from 33% to 36% placement into 500+ atty firms from 2013 to 2014, and Mich went from 37% to 34%. If you're looking at 100+ atty firms, GULC went from 41 to 45% and Mich went from 49 to 43%. Am I totally misunderstanding something? I'm genuinely curious because I too am considering these two schools.


Looking at BigLaw (100+ att'y) + Federal Clerkships / Total Students:

UMich: 210/390 - 53%
GULC: 303/626 - 48%

Also consider that GULC has a larger percentage of school-funded positions (73 to Umich's 33), skewing overall hiring somewhat further.


Thanks for the clarification. Different data points, I guess. I've only been looking at big law numbers since thats what I'm primarily interested in.

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby TheodoreKGB » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:03 pm

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Last edited by TheodoreKGB on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Self-selection is a hard thing to figure out without data that simply doesn't exist (people's expectations for jobs vs. what job they got, relative to debt).

In the long haul, UMich places better than GULC. I seriously, seriously doubt that GULC's fortunes are going to significantly improve given the massive class sizes we have to work with. I very much doubt UMich's figures this year are indicative of a fall or permanent slump.

TheoKGB - you're not factoring in Federal Clerks, who go on to BigLaw. Umich has 41, GULC has 22. There is literally no reason to exclude clerks.

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby TheodoreKGB » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:10 pm

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Last edited by TheodoreKGB on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby LSATneurotic » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:11 pm

zacharus85 wrote:Self-selection is a hard thing to figure out without data that simply doesn't exist (people's expectations for jobs vs. what job they got, relative to debt).

In the long haul, UMich places better than GULC. I seriously, seriously doubt that GULC's fortunes are going to significantly improve given the massive class sizes we have to work with. I very much doubt UMich's figures this year are indicative of a fall or permanent slump.

TheoKGB - you're not factoring in Federal Clerks, who go on to BigLaw. Umich has 41, GULC has 22. There is literally no reason to exclude clerks.

In all seriousness, these school's respective employment outcomes just aren't that distinct from one another. What is distinct is the $30,000 price differential. That's why GULC seems like a solid choice here.

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90convoy
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby 90convoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:13 pm

User1855 wrote:I've got $67.5k from GULC that I have to accept/reject today and $45k from UMich. Details below:

GULC COA - $126k
UMich COA - $157k

COA will be financed with loans...may drop a little following SA's and use of some savings.

My goals are corp biglaw in NYC/DC for a couple years, then lateral to FL. I live in DC and really don't want to stay for LS...would much prefer the Ann Arbor lifestyle. However, my biggest concerns with UMich are (1) falling BL placement and (2) the "oppresively liberal" learning environment (quotes taken from some other poster).

Would appreciate some insight and/or opinions! Thank you all in advance!



OL

The difference in the cost/outcome ratio between these two schools is likely to be negligible if it can even be determined. The only reasonable thing to do here is to go where you feel you will enjoy your three years.

hearsay77
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby hearsay77 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:21 pm

LSATneurotic wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Self-selection is a hard thing to figure out without data that simply doesn't exist (people's expectations for jobs vs. what job they got, relative to debt).

In the long haul, UMich places better than GULC. I seriously, seriously doubt that GULC's fortunes are going to significantly improve given the massive class sizes we have to work with. I very much doubt UMich's figures this year are indicative of a fall or permanent slump.

TheoKGB - you're not factoring in Federal Clerks, who go on to BigLaw. Umich has 41, GULC has 22. There is literally no reason to exclude clerks.

In all seriousness, these school's respective employment outcomes just aren't that distinct from one another. What is distinct is the $30,000 price differential. That's why GULC seems like a solid choice here.


^Agree with this and that $30k difference after interest is really a lot more than that.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:26 pm

Again: This is incredibly short-sighted.

Let's look at 2013 BL + FC, for instance:

GULC - 300/645 = 46.5%
UMich - 228/399 = 57%

Also, that year Georgetown had 11.3% school-funded jobs. That is bad. In contrast, UMich had 3. Not percent. 3 jobs. which is less than 1%. UMich, in the long run, does way better by a clear margin.

Edit: Also, GULC has a small endowment fund so is dependent on large class sizes. Which means it either has to get less selective (hurting it in the rankings and for future hiring) as fewer people go to law school or it has to forgo money it desperately needs to function.
Last edited by Capitol_Idea on Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kray
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby kray » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:27 pm

Maybe I'm missing something but based on information given I don't understand how you calculated COA (especially because you said you'll be funding with loans). I have $105k from GULC and my estimated COA is still over $150k when considering tuition, COL, interest, loan origination fees, etc., etc.

envisciguy
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby envisciguy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:28 pm

Are you taking into account the COL difference between DC and Ann Arbor? I have to assume that rent and COL in general is much cheaper in Ann Arbor and would offset part of the COA difference.

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CaptainJapan
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby CaptainJapan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:29 pm

sneezus wrote:Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC. Michigan also places well in NYC. in my mind, Mich is worth the 30k more than GULC here.

don't let a random anonymous poster's subjective perception of a school they don't actually attend influence your choice. that is stupid.



Really? 2 much's?

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:31 pm

CaptainJapan wrote:
sneezus wrote:Michigan's numbers are still much, much better than GULC. Michigan also places well in NYC. in my mind, Mich is worth the 30k more than GULC here.

don't let a random anonymous poster's subjective perception of a school they don't actually attend influence your choice. that is stupid.



Really? 2 much's?


I'd go as high as 2.5 much's

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:33 pm

I concur with everything zacharus has said itt

User1855
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby User1855 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:33 pm

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Last edited by User1855 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

envisciguy
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby envisciguy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:37 pm

User1855 wrote:
envisciguy wrote:Are you taking into account the COL difference between DC and Ann Arbor? I have to assume that rent and COL in general is much cheaper in Ann Arbor and would offset part of the COA difference.


I didn't include COL bc my spouse has a good/portable job that will pay for COL in either city. COA calculated above is just tuition + books/supplies + accumulated interest - scholarships.


I don't understand this reasoning though. If you're paying substantially more in one city than another, that should be part of the calculation, regardless of the pot the money is actually coming from. Over the course of 3 years, the difference between the schools when factoring COL could make the schools much more comparable in terms of cost.

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Hand
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Re: Have to decide TODAY - GULC v UMich

Postby Hand » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:37 pm

User1855 wrote:
envisciguy wrote:Are you taking into account the COL difference between DC and Ann Arbor? I have to assume that rent and COL in general is much cheaper in Ann Arbor and would offset part of the COA difference.


I didn't include COL bc my spouse has a good/portable job that will pay for COL in either city. COA calculated above is just tuition + books/supplies + accumulated interest - scholarships.


if your spouse feels the same way about DC and portability of their employment, then just pack up your stuff and go to Mich already; seems like it would be worth paying a little extra given goals and other preferences




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