W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

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Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:04 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:Having already been rejected this go around, would that not hurt my chances for admission the second time?

Well first of all you haven't been rejected, but even if you had I'm not sure what they could do to you next cycle that's worse than just reject you again.

But I don't hate Fordham here. Normally Fordham is tough to justify but with the ability to live at home and 40k/year it's totally defensible.


Is it? Their job placement and starting salary seems to be right in line with the other top schools from what I've been able to find, especially in the New York area.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:07 pm

Long Island Law wrote:
Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Would you be living at home if you go to Fordham? Did you apply to NYU?


Yes, my transportation costs are figured into that $15,000 cost of attendance. Which would probably equate to $0 debt for me.


But Fordham estimates it's cost of attendance for this year (not 2015-2016, 2014-2015) at $79,674 without health insurance. Take out $20k you save by living at home at you're around $59k. With the likely tuition increase for 2015 it's probably more like $62k. And then with tuition increases for the next two years it's probably $64.5k and then $67k.

So taking into account your scholarship ($40k/year) and your parents' expect contribution ($15k/yr) you're still looking at coming up with ~$30k.


I think our math is a little different here? Even if tuition goes up to $67,000 in my third year [which seems a little high] thats -$40,000 for scholarship and - $15,000 from parental contributions = $12,000

Obviously that doesn't include textbooks and other fees, but I don't think that's going to add up to $18,000.

I'm talking tuition plus books and stuff plus personal expenses when I come up with $62k for first year, $64.5k for second year, and $67k for third year. Subtracting scholarship and parental contribution (combined to 55k) from those amounts leads to $7k first year, $9.5k second year, $12k third year. Add them up for all three years and you get $28.5k, and then I rounded up to $30k to take account of interest.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:07 pm

For real, tell us: around when did you send your apps? Could be very important.

You should have gotten a lot of money at Cornell with these numbers. But they can only accept so many people and give out so much money late in the cycle; reapplying in September would change things substantially.

Alternatively, have you ever been convicted of murder or some other serious felony?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:07 pm

Fordham gives almost no full rides and is in a really expensive area, which is a killer for people who have to debt finance the whole cost of living. So even with a large scholarship most students are looking at well over 100k debt which is a lot when they put fewer than 40% of grads into biglaw or fed clerk jobs and just 2/3 of the class has a full time, bar passage required job ten months after graduation.

But for almost free those are good numbers.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:12 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
Yes, my transportation costs are figured into that $15,000 cost of attendance. Which would probably equate to $0 debt for me.


But Fordham estimates it's cost of attendance for this year (not 2015-2016, 2014-2015) at $79,674 without health insurance. Take out $20k you save by living at home at you're around $59k. With the likely tuition increase for 2015 it's probably more like $62k. And then with tuition increases for the next two years it's probably $64.5k and then $67k.

So taking into account your scholarship ($40k/year) and your parents' expect contribution ($15k/yr) you're still looking at coming up with ~$30k.


I think our math is a little different here? Even if tuition goes up to $67,000 in my third year [which seems a little high] thats -$40,000 for scholarship and - $15,000 from parental contributions = $12,000

Obviously that doesn't include textbooks and other fees, but I don't think that's going to add up to $18,000.

I'm talking tuition plus books and stuff plus personal expenses when I come up with $62k for first year, $64.5k for second year, and $67k for third year. Subtracting scholarship and parental contribution (combined to 55k) from those amounts leads to $7k first year, $9.5k second year, $12k third year. Add them up for all three years and you get $28.5k, and then I rounded up to $30k to take account of interest.


Oh, yeah. $30,000 over the course of three years. I thought you meant per year. Yeah, that sounds about right. Either way, it's a much lower financial burden.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:13 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:For real, tell us: around when did you send your apps? Could be very important.

You should have gotten a lot of money at Cornell with these numbers. But they can only accept so many people and give out so much money late in the cycle; reapplying in September would change things substantially.

Alternatively, have you ever been convicted of murder or some other serious felony?


Obviously I've never been convicted of any serious crime. I sent my applications out in late November, is that really so late?

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:19 pm

Hmm. No, that's not very late. That's pretty concerning.

You're sure you have no C&F issues/didn't have any glaring application deficiencies or flaws/didn't do something really strange with your personal statement/go to university of phoenix for UG?

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:24 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Hmm. No, that's not very late. That's pretty concerning.

You're sure you have no C&F issues/didn't have any glaring application deficiencies or flaws/didn't do something really strange with your personal statement/go to university of phoenix for UG?


I went to SUNY Geneseo, so maybe the fact that I went to a small public school damaged my application? I have never had anything even remotely approaching a legal problem. Maybe one of my letters of recommendation wasn't that good? I don't know.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:26 pm

No your undergrad is fine. I'm puzzled.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:27 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:No your undergrad is fine. I'm puzzled.


Based on where I got accepted, do you think going to Fordham for little/no debt is a worthwhile proposition? Do I bite the bullet and go elsewhere? Or is reapplying really my best option...?

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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:30 pm

I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:31 pm

BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:32 pm

Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

Compared to what? They place half as many people as a percentage of their class into the kinds of jobs you want compared to CLS, NYU and Cornell.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:35 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

Compared to what? They place half as many people as a percentage of their class into the kinds of jobs you want compared to CLS, NYU and Cornell.


Compared to schools like Vanderbilt that I actually got into. I am aware that schools like Columbia and NYU have much better placement than Fordham, but I didn't get accepted there (yet?) so comparing to them is useless for me.

BigZuck
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:36 pm

Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

"very successful" and "good" are all relative I guess

I'd say "pretty successful" but what I call it doesn't matter. Grim reality is that what you say you want isn't probable if you attend Fordham, but it is at a T14. Whether that is ok with you and you are good with the alternatives if you don't get what you say you want is a personal decision.

Long Island Law
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Long Island Law » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:37 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

"very successful" and "good" are all relative I guess

I'd say "pretty successful" but what I call it doesn't matter. Grim reality is that what you say you want isn't probable if you attend Fordham, but it is at a T14. Whether that is ok with you and you are good with the alternatives if you don't get what you say you want is a personal decision.


What are the likely alternatives for a Fordham Grad?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:38 pm

Well you said that Fordham "seems to be successful at placing their grads into good law jobs." Compared to a lot of schools this is true. But the average school has about a 50% employment rate into good law jobs, and that's with a generous definition of good. But in a vacuum? Fordham's just ok. A large percentage going to big firms, and an equally large percentage either unemployed, underemployed, or employed by the school.

http://law.fordham.edu/assets/CareerPla ... 1158AM.pdf

BigZuck
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:41 pm

Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Long Island Law wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I agree with Tiago that Fordham is fine. Just got to be ok with actually living at home for 3 years and that there is a solid possibility that you won't achieve your career goals.


Living at home isn't the issue, I just want to put myself in a situation to succeed. Am I missing something in looking at Fordham's hiring numbers? They seem to be very successful at placing graduates with good law jobs.

"very successful" and "good" are all relative I guess

I'd say "pretty successful" but what I call it doesn't matter. Grim reality is that what you say you want isn't probable if you attend Fordham, but it is at a T14. Whether that is ok with you and you are good with the alternatives if you don't get what you say you want is a personal decision.


What are the likely alternatives for a Fordham Grad?


This is probably as good a place to start as any:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... more/2013/

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BasilHallward
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby BasilHallward » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:51 pm

I agree with Mcavoy. Your cycle is not indicative of your numbers. Your results are concerning. Your results should have many full rides; Vanderbilt, in particular. Fix your app, if possible, and reapply with viable scholarship numbers.

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Winston1984
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:53 pm

BasilHallward wrote:I agree with Mcavoy. Your cycle is not indicative of your numbers. Your results are concerning. Your results should have many full rides; Vanderbilt, in particular. Fix your app, if possible, and reapply with viable scholarship numbers.

Idk about many full rides.. He is a splitter. Definitely not a full ride at Vanderbilt. Need to be over both 75ths (or at least medians) to get that.

sparkytrainer
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:59 pm

Just jumping in here and no offense to OP. It just goes to show how numbers don't mean everything when it comes to admissions at the t14 schools. Especially with Spivey already stating that splitters are having a rough year this year and looks like an even rougher year next year with how the number trends going. Sucks for splitters. I am one as well. But shows TLS is not always right in saying its numbers> everything. In a growing number of cases, it is not the truth anymore.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:59 pm

BasilHallward wrote:I agree with Mcavoy. Your cycle is not indicative of your numbers. Your results are concerning. Your results should have many full rides; Vanderbilt, in particular. Fix your app, if possible, and reapply with viable scholarship numbers.

yeah fullies will be tough with the 3.5. but Cornell with like 100K should be an option here and that'd be perfect for him.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:02 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Just jumping in here and no offense to OP. It just goes to show how numbers don't mean everything when it comes to admissions at the t14 schools. Especially with Spivey already stating that splitters are having a rough year this year and looks like an even rougher year next year with how the number trends going. Sucks for splitters. I am one as well. But shows TLS is not always right in saying its numbers> everything. In a growing number of cases, it is not the truth anymore.

no. that's silly. present some data that shows something other than numbers (or AA) consistently gets people admitted. We have a wealth of data that shows the opposite. numbers are a necessary but not sufficient condition; if your application has serious defects or is late you're going to underperform.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: W&M v. Vanderbilt v. Fordham v. USC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:03 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Just jumping in here and no offense to OP. It just goes to show how numbers don't mean everything when it comes to admissions at the t14 schools. Especially with Spivey already stating that splitters are having a rough year this year and looks like an even rougher year next year with how the number trends going. Sucks for splitters. I am one as well. But shows TLS is not always right in saying its numbers> everything. In a growing number of cases, it is not the truth anymore.

a) the cycle isn't over

b) Spivey doesn't have much more info than anyone else. Plenty of splitters have killed it this cycle. Spivey's just guessing like the rest of us regarding next year's app cycle.

c) Not sure how anything you claim to know represents a growing number of cases, or what you are comparing to.




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