Duke vs. Michigan

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halfnhalf
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Duke vs. Michigan

Postby halfnhalf » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:49 pm

Really stuck between Duke and Michigan-- I visited both schools and liked them both. I'm interested in a public service career, either as prosecutor at a DA's office or in federal government (DOJ criminal division, US Attorneys Office, etc). I'm from New York and went to college in DC, so realistically I see myself in either of those two cities.

I have the exact same amount of money from both schools, so financial aid is not really a consideration. I'm looking for the school that will give me the most opportunities and the most flexibility in my career.

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Yea All Right
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Yea All Right » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:53 pm

Duke hands down, at same cost Duke's better job outcomes will be so helpful. Also it's closer to DC for federal government.

meachum
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby meachum » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:55 pm

Duke

Yeezus
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Yeezus » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:11 pm

Duke, not even close. Have you seen Michigan's most recent employment numbers?

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jrthor10
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby jrthor10 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:14 pm

A little confused as to how it is "not even close" when OP is looking to do PI not BL.

Duke may certainly have a slight advantage, especially with recent trends, but recent employment #s aren't really relevant to OP if he/she is looking to do PI.

I would choose based on sports interests--need a new football team to follow? Michigan. Basketball? Likely Duke.

Edit:

Could also choose based on whether you liked Shooters or Ricks better (assuming you went to both).

More honestly, Ann Arbor and Durham are very different. You likely need a car in the latter, but not so much in the former. Might decide whether you prefer to drive to school or walk, etc.
Last edited by jrthor10 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeezus
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Yeezus » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:16 pm

jrthor10 wrote:A little confused as to how it is "not even close" when OP is looking to do PI not BL.

Duke may certainly have a slight advantage, especially with recent trends, but recent employment #s aren't really relevant to OP if he/she is looking to do PI.

I would choose based on sports interests--need a new football team to follow? Michigan. Basketball? Likely Duke.


On the off chance, however small it may be, that he decides PI isn't for him.

03152016
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby 03152016 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:18 pm

neither
you haven't listed cost, so i'll assume sticker at both
completely indefensible, especially mich

CanadianWolf
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:36 pm

Since your scholarship awards are the same from both schools, try to negotiate for more money from both before making a final decision.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:42 pm

Uh, have you seen Michigan's employment numeners? LOL.

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dsn32
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby dsn32 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:43 pm

jrthor10 wrote:A little confused as to how it is "not even close" when OP is looking to do PI not BL.

Duke may certainly have a slight advantage, especially with recent trends, but recent employment #s aren't really relevant to OP if he/she is looking to do PI.

I would choose based on sports interests--need a new football team to follow? Michigan. Basketball? Likely Duke.

Edit:

Could also choose based on whether you liked Shooters or Ricks better (assuming you went to both).

More honestly, Ann Arbor and Durham are very different. You likely need a car in the latter, but not so much in the former. Might decide whether you prefer to drive to school or walk, etc.


Obvious answer is to rename the thread "Shooters vs. Ricks", watch Ricks run away with it, and then proceed to spend three years at Skeeps after one night at Ricks.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby RunnerRunner » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:00 pm

I would choose Duke, but you wouldn't be foolish to choose Michigan considering you are interested in PI and UM is strong in that area. Also, unrelated to anything but Dean Zearfoss has got to be in the running for coolest law school dean :D General consensus does seem to be that Duke is on the rise while UM is in decline however.

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tincan678
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby tincan678 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:28 pm

RunnerRunner wrote:I would choose Duke, but you wouldn't be foolish to choose Michigan considering you are interested in PI and UM is strong in that area. Also, unrelated to anything but Dean Zearfoss has got to be in the running for coolest law school dean :D.


For government work in DC, be careful because Michigan's LRAP program might not cover you at the GS 11 pay rate.

And Zearfoss is the primary reason Michigan is spiraling out of the top 14. In my experience the admissions and financial aid staff has been incredibly incompetent and ASW felt like getting beaten over the head with a liberal hammer.

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dsn32
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby dsn32 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:36 pm

tincan678 wrote:
RunnerRunner wrote:I would choose Duke, but you wouldn't be foolish to choose Michigan considering you are interested in PI and UM is strong in that area. Also, unrelated to anything but Dean Zearfoss has got to be in the running for coolest law school dean :D.


For government work in DC, be careful because Michigan's LRAP program might not cover you at the GS 11 pay rate.

And Zearfoss is the primary reason Michigan is spiraling out of the top 14. In my experience the admissions and financial aid staff has been incredibly incompetent and ASW felt like getting beaten over the head with a liberal hammer.


In all seriousness though, this is +1. Go to Duke. It's terrifying that she is in charge of CSO too now.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby RunnerRunner » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:37 pm

tincan678 wrote:
RunnerRunner wrote:I would choose Duke, but you wouldn't be foolish to choose Michigan considering you are interested in PI and UM is strong in that area. Also, unrelated to anything but Dean Zearfoss has got to be in the running for coolest law school dean :D.


For government work in DC, be careful because Michigan's LRAP program might not cover you at the GS 11 pay rate.

And Zearfoss is the primary reason Michigan is spiraling out of the top 14. In my experience the admissions and financial aid staff has been incredibly incompetent and ASW felt like getting beaten over the head with a liberal hammer.

Ahh, sorry to hear it. And disclaimer OP: my impression was based solely on the fact that she seems to have a sense of humor in the e-mails I've gotten from UM.

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Yea All Right
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Yea All Right » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:47 pm

dsn32 wrote:
tincan678 wrote:
RunnerRunner wrote:I would choose Duke, but you wouldn't be foolish to choose Michigan considering you are interested in PI and UM is strong in that area. Also, unrelated to anything but Dean Zearfoss has got to be in the running for coolest law school dean :D.


For government work in DC, be careful because Michigan's LRAP program might not cover you at the GS 11 pay rate.

And Zearfoss is the primary reason Michigan is spiraling out of the top 14. In my experience the admissions and financial aid staff has been incredibly incompetent and ASW felt like getting beaten over the head with a liberal hammer.


In all seriousness though, this is +1. Go to Duke. It's terrifying that she is in charge of CSO too now.


Why is she in charge of the CSO? Blame the administration for putting an admissions person in that job. FWIW, I thought Dean Zearfoss was really cool when I was applying, and I doubt that Michigan's current job numbers are due to her (though who knows how she will affect them in the future).

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tincan678
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby tincan678 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:18 am

Yea All Right wrote:
Why is she in charge of the CSO? Blame the administration for putting an admissions person in that job. FWIW, I thought Dean Zearfoss was really cool when I was applying, and I doubt that Michigan's current job numbers are due to her (though who knows how she will affect them in the future).


Dean Z has overseen the office of career planning since 2010, which is when everything started going downhill. She is fine as a person, but she lets her political beliefs and intense favoritism get in the way of the success of the law school.

The vast majority of current students who I met at Michigan, while friendly, were also incredibly dorky. I think Dean Z had a lot to do with that because she clearly tends to favorite the awkward social justice warrior types. Unfortunately for Michigan, awkward people just don't do well in job interviews, and I'm sure that influenced Michigan's job placement.

P.S. she's on the board of directors of the Michigan ACLU. I happen to agree with her on a policy level, but the ASW programming made me feel like I did something wrong by wanting to do anything other than public interest.

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Lavitz
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Lavitz » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:26 am

tincan678 wrote:Dean Z has overseen the office of career planning since 2010, which is when everything started going downhill. She is fine as a person, but she lets her political beliefs and intense favoritism get in the way of the success of the law school.

The vast majority of current students who I met at Michigan, while friendly, were also incredibly dorky. I think Dean Z had a lot to do with that because she clearly tends to favorite the awkward social justice warrior types. Unfortunately for Michigan, awkward people just don't do well in job interviews, and I'm sure that influenced Michigan's job placement.

P.S. she's on the board of directors of the Michigan ACLU. I happen to agree with her on a policy level, but the ASW programming made me feel like I did something wrong by wanting to do anything other than public interest.

Wow.

Yeah, if she took over in 2010, then she was in charge during OCIs of 2011 and 2012, which were for classes of 2013 and 2014. So that's current employment numbers.

Anyway, I'd choose Duke here. I don't think Michigan's supposed PI bent has any advantage for OP's government goals in either NYC or DC.

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jrthor10
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby jrthor10 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:35 am

There is a lot of misinformation and baseless accusations in this post. You seem to have made the classic mistake of seeing correlation and assuming causation--especially considering the elephant in the room that is the downtown in in the law market generally.

I am not saying Dean Z is not to blame, I am just saying there is no way to know this with any level of certainty. Moreover, I can't comprehend how you can say current MLaw students are any less or more "dorky" than students at other schools. Did you create and administer a test to measure this attribute I am unaware of?

tincan678 wrote:
Yea All Right wrote:
Why is she in charge of the CSO? Blame the administration for putting an admissions person in that job. FWIW, I thought Dean Zearfoss was really cool when I was applying, and I doubt that Michigan's current job numbers are due to her (though who knows how she will affect them in the future).


Dean Z has overseen the office of career planning since 2010, which is when everything started going downhill. She is fine as a person, but she lets her political beliefs and intense favoritism get in the way of the success of the law school.

The vast majority of current students who I met at Michigan, while friendly, were also incredibly dorky. I think Dean Z had a lot to do with that because she clearly tends to favorite the awkward social justice warrior types. Unfortunately for Michigan, awkward people just don't do well in job interviews, and I'm sure that influenced Michigan's job placement.

P.S. she's on the board of directors of the Michigan ACLU. I happen to agree with her on a policy level, but the ASW programming made me feel like I did something wrong by wanting to do anything other than public interest.

mgschiet
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby mgschiet » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:52 am

jrthor10 wrote:Moreover, I can't comprehend how you can say current MLaw students are any less or more "dorky" than students at other schools. Did you create and administer a test to measure this attribute I am unaware of?

Intensely ironic...

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tincan678
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby tincan678 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:55 am

mgschiet wrote:
jrthor10 wrote:Moreover, I can't comprehend how you can say current MLaw students are any less or more "dorky" than students at other schools. Did you create and administer a test to measure this attribute I am unaware of?

Intensely ironic...


+1,000

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AreJay711
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:53 am

jrthor10 wrote:
I am not saying Dean Z is not to blame, I am just saying there is no way to know this with any level of certainty. Moreover, I can't comprehend how you can say current MLaw students are any less or more "dorky" than students at other schools. Did you create and administer a test to measure this attribute I am unaware of?



Eh, I can kind of see Michigan being more dorky overall. Most of my experience is just comparing them to people at my SA gig and GULC students I know. I can also see it not coming off well for biglaw jobs. Talking to people though, I think we had more fun than most law schools though.

BigZuck
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:58 am

Michigan threads always deliver. lol cool aunt law deans. Just lol.

I'm with Brut, sounds like both are too expensive

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Serett
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby Serett » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:35 pm

This board is absurdly reactionary sometimes.

TC, if you don't have at least a decent scholarship and/or substantial family resources, don't do either.

If you have at least one of those things or are going to ignore us and go anyway, then compare the respective LRAPs and choose whichever one has the program more suited to your plans or better in general, if PI is your main goal. If you're still torn after all that, they're peer schools, overreactions notwithstanding. Choose based on where you think you'll be happier at that point. NYC biglaw is your back-up plan, and overreactions notwithstanding, I have not seen a sensible argument that it's easier to get NYC biglaw out of either of these two schools, or that firms would have different grade cut-offs between them.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan

Postby ticklemesilly » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Why all the Michigan hate? Aren't we exaggerating a little? Michigan has a large class size so it was hit harder by the decline in applications. But 49% of its students got large firm employment last year, as opposed to 48% at Berkeley and 52% at Duke. And we have to remember this number might be higher if not for self-selection; people who know PI is in their future may choose Michigan over other schools, and this may play a role (as with Berkeley). ATL rankings which measure employment outcomes (methodology explained on their site, yes, Alumni ratings are part of the formula but I get the rationale that happy alumni usually means good jobs) rank Michigan 10, Berkeley 12, and Cornell 13.

So let's not be too over the top with the criticism.




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