ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

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NDorWM
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ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:49 pm

GPA 3.35-3.6
LSAT: Mid 160s
Non URM
Taken? Twice, will take in June for a third time. Will deposit at school in this cycle, have had minimum improvement from initial score. Have spent over a year legit studying. Also non-traditional student, so I cannot continue to put off school forever. If my June score is fantastic, great. If not, then I am still going to school.

Total costs over three years (tuition, housing, etc):

Notre Dame: COA: around 84k

William and Mary COA: around 51k

Have negotiated extensively. ND has said I'm out of luck, no more money for you. What my offer is, is final. Deposit deadline is tomorrow and they have explicitly told me no more money will become available for me after the deposit deadline.

These are total numbers. Will mostly be paid through saving. A few loans if necessary.

Goals: DC Biglaw/ specifically litigation. Would like to clerk if opportunity arises.

Why not the DC schools?
Waitlisted at Cornell, Georgetown, GW, Emory, Vanderbilt, WashU (this is the cycle of waitlists apparently).

Also, please no preaching retake, study hard, etc. I am doing exactly that. I realize how much a few extra points make. I am doing everything I can. But I will not put off school another year for the same outcome if my lsat doesn't change much for a third and final time.

The attorneys I speak with all state that ND has a much stronger name and a stronger alumni network, even on the East Coast, especially NYC and DC. It is geographically further, but it seems it travels a little more nationally. If not DC, I will be practicing in Florida. Strong strong strong ties, do not need a Florida school for the ties I have (hence why I did not put any Florida schools on this list).
Last edited by NDorWM on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: ND or W&M

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:54 pm

NDorWM wrote: Goals: DC Biglaw/ specifically litigation. Would like to clerk if opportunity arises. . . . If not DC, I will be practicing in Florida.

[Options:]Notre Dame: COA: around 84k
William and Mary COA: around 51k

[Correct route:] retake, study hard [and] put off school another year. . . .

NDorWM
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Re: ND or W&M

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:56 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
NDorWM wrote: Goals: DC Biglaw/ specifically litigation. Would like to clerk if opportunity arises. . . . If not DC, I will be practicing in Florida.

[Options:]Notre Dame: COA: around 84k
William and Mary COA: around 51k

[Correct route:] retake, study hard [and] put off school another year. . . .


I am retaking. Studying hard. Doing everything I can. But I am of an age where a school year later is not a great outcome unless it makes a significant difference in range of school. So if I score in the 170s, then yes I will sit out. But I am preparing for the case that I do not.

I do not want to sit out entirely and end up with the same options in a year if the LSAT is not drastically different. A year of work experience is negligible, I have quite a few.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:57 pm

You would more than likely have an uphill battle getting Florida big law if you went to Yale, let alone either of these schools.

With those goals, I'd say neither just because of how remote your odds are and it sounds like you have a good job already. If you really want to go to law school I'd probably just keep retaking the LSAT until you snag a T14 and even then DC big law will be tough to get.

If you want to do small firm/local gov, things like that I would go to FSU/Florida on a full ride.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:59 pm

BigZuck wrote:You would more than likely have an uphill battle getting Florida big law if you went to Yale, let alone either of these schools.

With those goals, I'd say neither just because of how remote your odds are and it sounds like you have a good job already. If you really want to go to law school I'd probably just keep retaking the LSAT until you snag a T14 and even then DC big law will be tough to get.

If you want to do small firm/local gov, things like that I would go to FSU/Florida on a full ride.


As far as Florida you are incorrect but that is more about my personal ties to jobs in Florida. As far as why law? there are personal reasons that I do not want to explain here but you are more than welcome to pm me and find out yourself.

This will be my third take. After that I have to wait two more years and in that case law is not a practical reality.

EDIT: I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:03 pm

NDorWM wrote:EDIT: I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

But these options do not make your goals "a practical reality." You can't even go to Georgetown and reasonably plan on landing biglaw lit in DC.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:05 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
NDorWM wrote:EDIT: I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

But these options do not make your goals "a practical reality." You can't even go to Georgetown and reasonably plan on landing biglaw lit in DC.


Thank you for advice. All I am asking is given these two choices, which is the prudent one. It is a ND or WM answer. I understand the risks and practicalities of my goals. I am a big boy.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:05 pm

NDorWM wrote:As far as Florida you are incorrect but that is more about my personal ties to jobs in Florida.

If you have some crazy nepotism going then maybe. Color my incredulous.

NDorWM wrote:I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

Some pegs are just so damn square, I can't justify advising people to try and jam them into certain round holes.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:08 pm

BigZuck wrote:
NDorWM wrote:As far as Florida you are incorrect but that is more about my personal ties to jobs in Florida.

If you have some crazy nepotism going then maybe. Color my incredulous.

NDorWM wrote:I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

Some pegs are just so damn square, I can't justify advising people to try and jam them into certain round holes.


Well thank you for the non-advice. If you don't have any guidance as far as between either choice, I appreciate you stopping by.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:20 pm

NDorWM wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
NDorWM wrote:As far as Florida you are incorrect but that is more about my personal ties to jobs in Florida.

If you have some crazy nepotism going then maybe. Color my incredulous.

NDorWM wrote:I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

Some pegs are just so damn square, I can't justify advising people to try and jam them into certain round holes.


Well thank you for the non-advice. If you don't have any guidance as far as between either choice, I appreciate you stopping by.

I gave you advice that was specifically tailored to your exact situation. The advice was also free and, objectively speaking, spectacularly good. I'm not sure what more you could possibly want.

Lots of people come on here and have no idea how law school or legal hiring works. Sounds like that isn't you, you've already got it figured out. So, you know what to do, no sense making a thread. Both schools are equally bad for your goals. The chances of it working out the way you say you want it to are too remote. Do you care about 30K? That should be the deciding factor in your decision given the false dichotomy you have boxed yourself into.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:
NDorWM wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
NDorWM wrote:As far as Florida you are incorrect but that is more about my personal ties to jobs in Florida.

If you have some crazy nepotism going then maybe. Color my incredulous.

NDorWM wrote:I am looking for information between these two schools given what I have stated. Please answer accordingly.

Some pegs are just so damn square, I can't justify advising people to try and jam them into certain round holes.


Well thank you for the non-advice. If you don't have any guidance as far as between either choice, I appreciate you stopping by.

I gave you advice that was specifically tailored to your exact situation. The advice was also free and, objectively speaking, spectacularly good. I'm not sure what more you could possibly want.

Lots of people come on here and have no idea how law school or legal hiring works. Sounds like that isn't you, you've already got it figured out. So, you know what to do, no sense making a thread. Both schools are equally bad for your goals. The chances of it working out the way you say you want it to are too remote. Do you care about 30K? That should be the deciding factor in your decision given the false dichotomy you have boxed yourself into.


I specifically asked for the advice I was looking for. Regardless of "strength" of advice. I came on this board to just see if one of the two was a better choice than the other. You have suggested neither is better than the other. Fantastic. That is the advice I wanted. Now that the formality is taken care off, you can buzz off.

But also what could I expect asking random strangers online whose credentials I know nothing about? I guess that is my fault.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:30 pm

Why would someone saying "Neither is better than the other and neither is good for your goals, if you really want to achieve them you need to change your focus" be so upsetting to you?

Nomo
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby Nomo » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:31 pm

You're not getting DC biglaw, but that's fine. Your debt isn't so big that practice small law in Florida will kill you. I recommend going to William and Mary to minimize the debt. Spend both summers in Florida (unless you actually get DC biglaw). Also, do an externship for a government office in Florida during your 3L fall (I'm assuming that William and Mary allows this).

You'd have a better shot at a job if you just went to UF ... But if you're from Florida and you spend two summers there, plus an externship, then you shouldn't be too far behind the curve.

Nomo
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby Nomo » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:31 pm

You're not getting DC biglaw, but that's fine. Your debt isn't so big that practice small law in Florida will kill you. I recommend going to William and Mary to minimize the debt. Spend both summers in Florida (unless you actually get DC biglaw). Also, do an externship for a government office in Florida during your 3L fall (I'm assuming that William and Mary allows this).

You'd have a better shot at a job if you just went to UF ... But if you're from Florida and you spend two summers there, plus an externship, then you shouldn't be too far behind the curve.

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Mozart Lacrimosa
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby Mozart Lacrimosa » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:51 pm

Gun to my head - William and Mary. But only because neither plays in florida but WM might snag a legal job in dc.

liberalartslawyer
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby liberalartslawyer » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:56 pm

If you have strong ties to Florida, you should be able to get back there pretty easily with ND. Look at their employment map on their website - most people return to their home markets since ND doesn't have a market it really feeds into.

As for DC from ND - the odds aren't great, but people do it. Again, see employment map.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:02 pm

liberalartslawyer wrote:If you have strong ties to Florida, you should be able to get back there pretty easily with ND. Look at their employment map on their website - most people return to their home markets since ND doesn't have a market it really feeds into.

As for DC from ND - the odds aren't great, but people do it. Again, see employment map.


Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:12 pm

liberalartslawyer wrote:If you have strong ties to Florida, you should be able to get back there pretty easily with ND. Look at their employment map on their website - most people return to their home markets since ND doesn't have a market it really feeds into.

As for DC from ND - the odds aren't great, but people do it. Again, see employment map.

Do you know what the breakdown is on types of jobs per region? I'm seeing the map but it's a broken link when I click on it. How many people are getting big law in DC from ND?

This is anecdotal of course but based on people at my school and people I know from T14s who are from FL and target that market, it's very hard to get big law there. I don't know why firms would be open to ND grads but not higher ranked schools but maybe I guess.

CanadianWolf
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:15 pm

DC biglaw is difficult to get from a non-T-14 law school and quite competitive for those who do well at T-14 law schools. Federal judicial clerkships are very difficult to obtain, as well. Aim high, but prepare for a career in Florida.

$17,000 per year total COA is reasonable for Wm.& Mary--just be sure that your career expectations are reasonable, as well.

At $28,000 per year, Notre Dame is offering name prestige & a nation-wide alumni network, but slim chances of DC biglaw.

thomch05
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby thomch05 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:18 pm

They place like maybe five kids into DC big law...http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/notredame/2013/, granted these are the numbers from 13', but 5.3% of last years class went there.

BigZuck
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:20 pm

thomch05 wrote:They place like maybe five kids into DC big law...http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/notredame/2013/, granted these are the numbers from 13', but 5.3% of last years class went there.

And unless I'm missing it I can't find anything that says any of that 5% is big law. Or even in law. Just "employed." They could all be working at Starbucks in DC.

Their website might be more detailed but it's not working for me.

thomch05
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby thomch05 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:24 pm

Yea the link is dead...

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Mozart Lacrimosa
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby Mozart Lacrimosa » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:27 pm

Lol we must have blown out the link with all our traffic.. That map did have it broken down by type of work. I think we're all on record saying this is very unlikely to work out, but OP seems to be okay with that.

NDorWM
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Re: ND ($$) or W&M ($$$)

Postby NDorWM » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:52 pm

Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:Lol we must have blown out the link with all our traffic.. That map did have it broken down by type of work. I think we're all on record saying this is very unlikely to work out, but OP seems to be okay with that.


Yep. I understand the risks and percentages. What I am/was looking for which one, on the whole, is the stronger of the two. I understand the chances are slim. No surprise, but the chances at big law in DC are slim from almost any school not named HYS.




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