Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

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everything_bagel
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby everything_bagel » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:29 am

jbagelboy wrote:thoughtful things


Thanks for this.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:28 am

OP: You really should contact Chicago's admissions office to get their input as to Chicago's ability to place you in public interest positions that match your objectives.

No one is arguing that Yale is not the best at placing law grads into this field. It's just the debt burden is real whether or not a law school program repays your $250,000 debt plus future interest over a 10 year period. What happens if you become disabled ? What happens if your career plans change within the next decade ? What happens if you get dismissed from one entity & don't want to move elsewhere geographically speaking ? (Folks get fired for being too good at their job if the boss feel threatened, for example, by an underling's superior performance.) And, programs can & do change just like the US economy can go into a severe recession or even a depression. The list of "what ifs" is long. Sometimes life just interrupts one's well thought-out plans. A growing $250,000 debt burden is real & doesn't magically disappear just because you went to Yale & both you & Yale have good intentions.

You already have contacts at some, maybe more than some, of your targeted entities.

In short, debt-free & working at the same PI entity is much better than working there with a growing $250,000 law school student loan debt burden hanging around your neck. Yet, some posters want you to believe that only Harvard, Yale & NYU have access to these positions. If you believe that, then you might be a bit too young & inexperienced for law school.

soexcited
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby soexcited » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:25 pm

Just a thought here, as someone struggling with the same decision. One insight I had during Chicago's ASW last week was that, even putting money aside aside, choosing the Ruby over Yale is different than choosing Chicago in general over Yale. The Rubenstein is new, but so far it has awesome numbers (60% federal clerkship rate or something?) and seems to have a lot of support from faculty. This might not be a matter of simply weighing the price of the schools versus their relative placement possibilities. I think it's conceivable that Rubenstein places into prestigious jobs (PI or not) similarly to Yale, though we can't really know that for sure right now. Anyway, you can tell which way I'm leaning. I plan to put a check in the mail on my way home from work :D

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:21 pm

soexcited wrote:Just a thought here, as someone struggling with the same decision. One insight I had during Chicago's ASW last week was that, even putting money aside aside, choosing the Ruby over Yale is different than choosing Chicago in general over Yale. The Rubenstein is new, but so far it has awesome numbers (60% federal clerkship rate or something?) and seems to have a lot of support from faculty. This might not be a matter of simply weighing the price of the schools versus their relative placement possibilities. I think it's conceivable that Rubenstein places into prestigious jobs (PI or not) similarly to Yale, though we can't really know that for sure right now. Anyway, you can tell which way I'm leaning. I plan to put a check in the mail on my way home from work :D


I'm skeptical about this and am pretty sure it's just marketing, as others in the thread have said it matters very little or not at all in legal hiring since its just a reflection of undergrad work and LSAT

soexcited
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby soexcited » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:22 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
soexcited wrote:Just a thought here, as someone struggling with the same decision. One insight I had during Chicago's ASW last week was that, even putting money aside aside, choosing the Ruby over Yale is different than choosing Chicago in general over Yale. The Rubenstein is new, but so far it has awesome numbers (60% federal clerkship rate or something?) and seems to have a lot of support from faculty. This might not be a matter of simply weighing the price of the schools versus their relative placement possibilities. I think it's conceivable that Rubenstein places into prestigious jobs (PI or not) similarly to Yale, though we can't really know that for sure right now. Anyway, you can tell which way I'm leaning. I plan to put a check in the mail on my way home from work :D


I'm skeptical about this and am pretty sure it's just marketing, as others in the thread have said it matters very little or not at all in legal hiring since its just a reflection of undergrad work and LSAT


Yeah, I'm not referring here to the resume effect, but to support from profs and administrators. I think that's a different issue.

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AreJay711
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:38 pm

The thing is, even with loan forgiveness, not having the debt will be a relief. It will still show up as a balance every year, you'll still have to make payments every month (you'll probably make over whatever threshold Yale has at some point), and it will show up on your credit report for 10 years. It doesn't matter if you never pay more than 20% off.

Plus, I know a lot of the libiest lib do-gooders who decided to go biglaw "for a few years" after 2L OCI. They're 1-2 years in and I struggle to imagine them finding 4 roommates and moving to Bushwick so they can help the poor.

Pulsar
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Pulsar » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:36 pm

It is just true that the Rubenstein clerkship rate is higher than Yale's. Maybe that's not a fair comparison. Perhaps an even higher percentage of the Rubenstein cohort would have clerked/etc. had they gone to Yale. But the point is you can do a lot from Chicago. You may have to work harder for it -- there are grades, and they are competitive. And that may suck lol. But it can be done and if you got the Ruby then somebody must think you have what it takes to do it. The Ruby isn't entirely numbers driven. They really do look for some sort of X "this person will be good" factor.

I think truly dedicated PI folks who are 100% comfortable with being utterly broke and who have the personal history to back that up (if you haven't been out saving the world already then it's difficult to imagine that you're really going to up and start when biglaw starts calling, or, worse, even if you do do it you may find that you aren't cut out for it once you do get there) have a reasonable case for going to Yale. These people exist, and you may be one of them. I've had the privilege of meeting several for whom I have a lot of respect. As soon as "biglaw for a few years" enters the equation however (even if DOJ Honors is the end goal) then Chicago becomes 100% undoubtedly the best call. Paying off craptons of debt and knowing that you could have gotten that same biglaw job from Chicago would be a bad feeling.

I'm a soon-to-be-graduated 3L at Chicago. I didn't get into Yale, and I always just wanted to go do the big firm thing for awhile, so the Ruby was the obvious choice for me when it fell into my lap. Not having faced the choice myself, I sometimes struggle with how to advise the Ruby admits I meet who are making the PI-oriented Y/$$$$ decision. But I can say that I will be graduating law school in the black. The retirement account I contributed to last tax season is up 9% in nominal terms -- I'm starting to realize that the usual $300k (or whatever crazy number it is now) vs zero debt numbers may actually understate the Ruby's financial advantages. It is easier to make money when you already have it after all. I did get a good clerkship and I know I could get a job at a lot of firms. Many of my Ruby classmates are in similar positions. Not all -- not studying much and just coasting to BigFirmX is a rationally defensible choice that some make on occasion. But in any event it is very freeing to not worry about money. Financial freedom may allow me to do career things I can't yet imagine and wouldn't otherwise consider 10 years from now, and it'll be very useful if I ever want to have kids. This general life flexibility is a valuable thing.

--My two*100*172,000 cents. Best of luck with your decision and life in general, whatever you choose.

omegaweapon
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby omegaweapon » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:36 pm

Pulsar wrote:It is just true that the Rubenstein clerkship rate is higher than Yale's. Maybe that's not a fair comparison. Perhaps an even higher percentage of the Rubenstein cohort would have clerked/etc. had they gone to Yale. But the point is you can do a lot from Chicago. You may have to work harder for it -- there are grades, and they are competitive. And that may suck lol. But it can be done and if you got the Ruby then somebody must think you have what it takes to do it. The Ruby isn't entirely numbers driven. They really do look for some sort of X "this person will be good" factor.

I think truly dedicated PI folks who are 100% comfortable with being utterly broke and who have the personal history to back that up (if you haven't been out saving the world already then it's difficult to imagine that you're really going to up and start when biglaw starts calling, or, worse, even if you do do it you may find that you aren't cut out for it once you do get there) have a reasonable case for going to Yale. These people exist, and you may be one of them. I've had the privilege of meeting several for whom I have a lot of respect. As soon as "biglaw for a few years" enters the equation however (even if DOJ Honors is the end goal) then Chicago becomes 100% undoubtedly the best call. Paying off craptons of debt and knowing that you could have gotten that same biglaw job from Chicago would be a bad feeling.

I'm a soon-to-be-graduated 3L at Chicago. I didn't get into Yale, and I always just wanted to go do the big firm thing for awhile, so the Ruby was the obvious choice for me when it fell into my lap. Not having faced the choice myself, I sometimes struggle with how to advise the Ruby admits I meet who are making the PI-oriented Y/$$$$ decision. But I can say that I will be graduating law school in the black. The retirement account I contributed to last tax season is up 9% in nominal terms -- I'm starting to realize that the usual $300k (or whatever crazy number it is now) vs zero debt numbers may actually understate the Ruby's financial advantages. It is easier to make money when you already have it after all. I did get a good clerkship and I know I could get a job at a lot of firms. Many of my Ruby classmates are in similar positions. Not all -- not studying much and just coasting to BigFirmX is a rationally defensible choice that some make on occasion. But in any event it is very freeing to not worry about money. Financial freedom may allow me to do career things I can't yet imagine and wouldn't otherwise consider 10 years from now, and it'll be very useful if I ever want to have kids. This general life flexibility is a valuable thing.

--My two*100*172,000 cents. Best of luck with your decision and life in general, whatever you choose.



The Ruby clerkship thing is really interesting. I don't think the resume line is important, but it's 100% true that they offer additional faculty access, and letters of rec are really important for clerkship. Like you say, there is also probably some correlation between people selected for Rubies, and people who have credentials that imply that they can do well in law school, and build faculty relationships. I think it's really hard to separate, and both are probably factors.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:06 pm

Pulsar wrote:It is just true that the Rubenstein clerkship rate is higher than Yale's. Maybe that's not a fair comparison. Perhaps an even higher percentage of the Rubenstein cohort would have clerked/etc. had they gone to Yale. But the point is you can do a lot from Chicago. You may have to work harder for it -- there are grades, and they are competitive. And that may suck lol. But it can be done and if you got the Ruby then somebody must think you have what it takes to do it. The Ruby isn't entirely numbers driven. They really do look for some sort of X "this person will be good" factor.

I think truly dedicated PI folks who are 100% comfortable with being utterly broke and who have the personal history to back that up (if you haven't been out saving the world already then it's difficult to imagine that you're really going to up and start when biglaw starts calling, or, worse, even if you do do it you may find that you aren't cut out for it once you do get there) have a reasonable case for going to Yale. These people exist, and you may be one of them. I've had the privilege of meeting several for whom I have a lot of respect. As soon as "biglaw for a few years" enters the equation however (even if DOJ Honors is the end goal) then Chicago becomes 100% undoubtedly the best call. Paying off craptons of debt and knowing that you could have gotten that same biglaw job from Chicago would be a bad feeling.

I'm a soon-to-be-graduated 3L at Chicago. I didn't get into Yale, and I always just wanted to go do the big firm thing for awhile, so the Ruby was the obvious choice for me when it fell into my lap. Not having faced the choice myself, I sometimes struggle with how to advise the Ruby admits I meet who are making the PI-oriented Y/$$$$ decision. But I can say that I will be graduating law school in the black. The retirement account I contributed to last tax season is up 9% in nominal terms -- I'm starting to realize that the usual $300k (or whatever crazy number it is now) vs zero debt numbers may actually understate the Ruby's financial advantages. It is easier to make money when you already have it after all. I did get a good clerkship and I know I could get a job at a lot of firms. Many of my Ruby classmates are in similar positions. Not all -- not studying much and just coasting to BigFirmX is a rationally defensible choice that some make on occasion. But in any event it is very freeing to not worry about money. Financial freedom may allow me to do career things I can't yet imagine and wouldn't otherwise consider 10 years from now, and it'll be very useful if I ever want to have kids. This general life flexibility is a valuable thing.

--My two*100*172,000 cents. Best of luck with your decision and life in general, whatever you choose.


I'm jealous (of the finances).

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everything_bagel
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby everything_bagel » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:15 am

Thanks for all the amazing input, y'all. I'm headed to Hyde Park.

Maybe I will regret losing out on Yale's alumni connections, but I think I can find my way. If it takes me two extra years-or 10-to find my dream job at least I'll be debt free and a part of a really sweet community.

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Rigo
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Rigo » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:19 am

Awesome choice!
Good luck, bagel! I'm sure you'll do great things in life.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:24 am

everything_bagel wrote:Thanks for all the amazing input, y'all. I'm headed to Hyde Park.

Maybe I will regret losing out on Yale's alumni connections, but I think I can find my way. If it takes me two extra years-or 10-to find my dream job at least I'll be debt free and a part of a really sweet community.


congrats on your choice. you really couldn't go wrong.

WheninLaw
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:10 am

Pulsar wrote:It is just true that the Rubenstein clerkship rate is higher than Yale's. Maybe that's not a fair comparison. Perhaps an even higher percentage of the Rubenstein cohort would have clerked/etc. had they gone to Yale. But the point is you can do a lot from Chicago. You may have to work harder for it -- there are grades, and they are competitive. And that may suck lol. But it can be done and if you got the Ruby then somebody must think you have what it takes to do it. The Ruby isn't entirely numbers driven. They really do look for some sort of X "this person will be good" factor.

I think truly dedicated PI folks who are 100% comfortable with being utterly broke and who have the personal history to back that up (if you haven't been out saving the world already then it's difficult to imagine that you're really going to up and start when biglaw starts calling, or, worse, even if you do do it you may find that you aren't cut out for it once you do get there) have a reasonable case for going to Yale. These people exist, and you may be one of them. I've had the privilege of meeting several for whom I have a lot of respect. As soon as "biglaw for a few years" enters the equation however (even if DOJ Honors is the end goal) then Chicago becomes 100% undoubtedly the best call. Paying off craptons of debt and knowing that you could have gotten that same biglaw job from Chicago would be a bad feeling.

I'm a soon-to-be-graduated 3L at Chicago. I didn't get into Yale, and I always just wanted to go do the big firm thing for awhile, so the Ruby was the obvious choice for me when it fell into my lap. Not having faced the choice myself, I sometimes struggle with how to advise the Ruby admits I meet who are making the PI-oriented Y/$$$$ decision. But I can say that I will be graduating law school in the black. The retirement account I contributed to last tax season is up 9% in nominal terms -- I'm starting to realize that the usual $300k (or whatever crazy number it is now) vs zero debt numbers may actually understate the Ruby's financial advantages. It is easier to make money when you already have it after all. I did get a good clerkship and I know I could get a job at a lot of firms. Many of my Ruby classmates are in similar positions. Not all -- not studying much and just coasting to BigFirmX is a rationally defensible choice that some make on occasion. But in any event it is very freeing to not worry about money. Financial freedom may allow me to do career things I can't yet imagine and wouldn't otherwise consider 10 years from now, and it'll be very useful if I ever want to have kids. This general life flexibility is a valuable thing.

--My two*100*172,000 cents. Best of luck with your decision and life in general, whatever you choose.


Finances part is right on, but I really doubt the Ruby clerkship rate is higher than Yale. I can think of a ton of Ruby's that are in the bottom half of the class.

michlaw
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby michlaw » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:03 pm

"These scholarships are predominantly merit-based."

The Rubenstein which is a great program funded by the founder of The Carlyle Group, is used for more than one purpose, as is stated somewhat quizzically on their website. Given that it is only predominately merit based. on then taking into account the uncertainly of using entrance numbers to project law school success, it is not surprising that many recipients do not end up at the top of the class. It is still an incredible benefit to any who are fortunate enough to receive it. Wish there were many more full rides available and congrats on receiving one.

I would think that the cultures at Yale and Chicago are wildly different. Not enough so to change the free versus costly but still worth thinking about.

Pulsar
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Pulsar » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:31 pm

WheninLaw wrote:Finances part is right on, but I really doubt the Ruby clerkship rate is higher than Yale. I can think of a ton of Ruby's that are in the bottom half of the class.


Just go find one of the people from the ASW lunch talk. They'll confirm it for you. And remember that Yale's first-year clerkship rate is only 31% (for the class of 2014 anyway). It's not really that hard to beat.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:47 pm

Pulsar wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:Finances part is right on, but I really doubt the Ruby clerkship rate is higher than Yale. I can think of a ton of Ruby's that are in the bottom half of the class.


Just go find one of the people from the ASW lunch talk. They'll confirm it for you. And remember that Yale's first-year clerkship rate is only 31% (for the class of 2014 anyway). It's not really that hard to beat.


I mean. That's one perspective. It takes a lot of effort to apply for clerkships.

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ballcaps
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby ballcaps » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:55 pm

michlaw wrote:"These scholarships are predominantly merit-based."

The Rubenstein which is a great program funded by the founder of The Carlyle Group, is used for more than one purpose, as is stated somewhat quizzically on their website. Given that it is only predominately merit based. on then taking into account the uncertainly of using entrance numbers to project law school success, it is not surprising that many recipients do not end up at the top of the class. It is still an incredible benefit to any who are fortunate enough to receive it. Wish there were many more full rides available and congrats on receiving one.

I would think that the cultures at Yale and Chicago are wildly different. Not enough so to change the free versus costly but still worth thinking about.


you are interpreting this incorrectly. why on earth would need be considered? i'm pretty sure some people have received rubies without even applying for financial aid.




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