Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:46 pm

Pry Yale then but make sure your SO knows how iffy you are about your relationship. Would be kind of mean to make someone move (just so they can see you on weekends) when she might be expecting more out of the relationship.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:58 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Pry Yale then but make sure your SO knows how iffy you are about your relationship. Would be kind of mean to make someone move (just so they can see you on weekends) when she might be expecting more out of the relationship.


This is actually really good advice. Do not let the SO move for you unless you have said "there is a 0% chance that we get married in the next 14 years" to their face and they're totally on-board with it. Don't just assume that they're cool with that.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:01 pm

I didn't read that as being iffy on the relationship as much as being iffy about marriage specifically, but the above are probably good things to consider.

amf3208
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby amf3208 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Talk to those Yale alums with a quarter million dollars of law school student loan debt who turned down a Rubenstein from the University of Chicago law school---if you can find one.


Hey OP. Congrats.

YLS alum with a quarter million dollars in debt who turned down a Ruby here.

I don't regret my decision. Yes, student debt is occasionally annoying and, I suppose, sort of psychologically taxing if you're the anxious type. But it's highly managed and regulated debt, so I wouldn't let generalized debt anxiety drive your decision too much. There are systems in place to make sure that you won't be uncomfortable. As has already been discussed, if you take any sort of "low-paying" job, COAP will cover you for ten years and pay off the full balance of your loans during that period. You can actually have a pretty healthy income and still get a lot of COAP money. And if you're truly committed to gov't/nonprofit work, you'll have the additional insurance policy of PAYE+PSLF, which essentially has the same effect--that is, ten years of tiny loan payments and no remaining debt at the end. Could these programs be revoked? Sure. But a mega-tsunami could also hit the country next week. I don't think it's helpful to factor in paranoia about very low-probability scenarios.

Now, if you're trying to be a strict value-maximizer, the debt should of course be factored in. For those who would ultimately end up in Biglaw, COAP and PAYE+PSLF are not in play, and thus a Ruby would lead to an overall increase in cash, at least in the short term. But that doesn't seem to be your situation.

In addition, no one--not anyone on TLS or any practicing attorney--can actually tell you the value that a YLS degree adds beyond a UChi degree, especially when you start talking about jobs like DOJ and LDF. It is absolutely true that those kinds of jobs are highly correlated with HYS degrees. Are there lurking variables? Almost certainly. Do they account for the entire effect size? There's no way to know. I will say--as others have already pointed out--that many of these things seem to become self-fulfilling. That is, HYS start putting people into DOJ and the like, perhaps because of little more than self-selection and preexisting traits. But then the HYS people already in those institutions develop a slight bias in favor of HYS people, which they can afford to do because the demand-supply equation is so absurd. Moreover, because so many HYS people end up in those jobs, the perception, even among those with no bias, becomes that a HYS degree is an expected credential. This especially seems to be the case for clerkships and academia. Don't ask me why, but judges and law schools seem to love hiring Yalies, even if you don't have a bunch of heavyweight professors vouching for you.

My point is that this is all guesswork. Except perhaps for those set on Biglaw, there's no way to predict what the value-maximizing path is, especially if you take account of all the intangibles. So just visit the schools if you can, and go with what feels right. But DON'T listen to the people who preach debt-avoidance as the only correct choice.

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Rigo
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:46 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:idk stars hollow seems pretty pleasant maybe you could commute to yale from there

Haha!

Congrats OP! Excellent options. I'd go Yale in your situation. Also, NYC to New Haven and back is certainly the most workable LDR I can think of. Though it'd be a bitch, you two could probably even live together around Stamford if you really wanted.

Good luck.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:02 pm

Don't listen to those who want you to take on a quarter of a million dollars of law school student loan debt & the accompanying stress. Stay debt free, become a Rubenstein Scholar, earn a law degree from one of the best law schools in the country, avoid modern day indentured servitude, enjoy financial freedom that will allow you to volunteer--if necessary--and it shouldn't be--for any organization in the world for a substantial period of time & still come out ahead financially while clearly showing targeted employers/organizations what you have to offer.

Remember: Common sense is a terrible thing to waste. And expensive too.

kfh37
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby kfh37 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:05 pm

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Last edited by kfh37 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:08 pm

And everything in the above post is available to UChicago law students, but without a $250,000 law school student loan debt burden.

Nomo
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Nomo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:32 pm

amf3208 wrote:if you take any sort of "low-paying" job, COAP will cover you for ten years and pay off the full balance of your loans during that period. You can actually have a pretty healthy income and still get a lot of COAP money. And if you're truly committed to gov't/nonprofit work, you'll have the additional insurance policy of PAYE+PSLF, which essentially has the same effect--that is, ten years of tiny loan payments and no remaining debt at the end. Could these programs be revoked? Sure. But a mega-tsunami could also hit the country next week. I don't think it's helpful to factor in paranoia about very low-probability scenarios.


PSLF is going to get gutted or maybe even repealed. The Obama administration wants to gut it and a lot of republicans want to gut or repeal it. This isn't like a major tsunami, its coming. And its almost certainly coming by the time that we start getting newspaper articles about doctors and lawyers getting 350k of debt forgiven. That should be around 2019. Now OP might be grandfathered into the old PAYE rules, that might even be the most likely outcome - but I have no idea how to judge that

I would assume you're right about COAP. If Yale felt the need to merge it with PSLF/PAYE they probably would've done so by now. But if I was OP, I would at least ask Yale some questions about this.

kfh37
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby kfh37 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:56 pm

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Last edited by kfh37 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:11 pm

OP: Share your thoughts with Chicago's admissions office. It's ridiculous to assert or believe that a Rubenstein Scholar from the Univ. of Chicago law school with demonstrated interest in public interest work would be locked out of that field. Yale & NYU have repayment programs designed for those targeting public interest work, thus, under the terms of their modern day indentured servitude agreement, they are required to work for relatively low pay in order to gain their financial freedom. You don't need to do this since Chicago guarantees your financial freedom from day one. Additionally, twenty-somethings have been known to change career interests & goals within 10 years of law school. Remember that Yale's indentured servitude agreement is weaker than Harvard's during the first 5 years--the most likely time during which a change in your life plans may occur.

OP: Re: those advising you to select Yale & a mountain of non-dischargeable student loan debt--their advice plus $250,000 plus about $5.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

YOU DON'T NEED COAP or LRAP or any other plan of the modern-day version indentured servitude if you do not have a staggering amount of non-dischargeable student loan debt.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:16 pm

Nomo wrote:
amf3208 wrote:if you take any sort of "low-paying" job, COAP will cover you for ten years and pay off the full balance of your loans during that period. You can actually have a pretty healthy income and still get a lot of COAP money. And if you're truly committed to gov't/nonprofit work, you'll have the additional insurance policy of PAYE+PSLF, which essentially has the same effect--that is, ten years of tiny loan payments and no remaining debt at the end. Could these programs be revoked? Sure. But a mega-tsunami could also hit the country next week. I don't think it's helpful to factor in paranoia about very low-probability scenarios.


PSLF is going to get gutted or maybe even repealed. The Obama administration wants to gut it and a lot of republicans want to gut or repeal it. This isn't like a major tsunami, its coming. And its almost certainly coming by the time that we start getting newspaper articles about doctors and lawyers getting 350k of debt forgiven. That should be around 2019. Now OP might be grandfathered into the old PAYE rules, that might even be the most likely outcome - but I have no idea how to judge that

I would assume you're right about COAP. If Yale felt the need to merge it with PSLF/PAYE they probably would've done so by now. But if I was OP, I would at least ask Yale some questions about this.


This. Thank god I paid off all of my loans rather than relying on LRAP.

But seriously, is anyone else skeptical that a Yale Law grad who is 40+ years old and graduated law school 10+ years ago is trolling for Yale on a law school forum? I don't really get it.

Also law school cost like 100k+ 10 to 15 years ago, not 250 to 300k.

Also, if you ever want a family $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$>>>>>>>>everything else.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:20 pm

If you and your spouse make say 150k you'll be paying a shit ton under COAP. It's great if you plan to stay single and not make too much, but even someone with an AGI of 100k is expected to pay more than $1500 a month.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:23 pm

BigLawAssociate: The quality of the posts to which you refer speak for themselves. To be crystal clear, I agree with BigLaw Associate.

Plus, OP could make a small fortune selling "I Turned Down Yale Law School" apparel.

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everything_bagel
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby everything_bagel » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:28 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Pry Yale then but make sure your SO knows how iffy you are about your relationship. Would be kind of mean to make someone move (just so they can see you on weekends) when she might be expecting more out of the relationship.


lol.

Nony is right; I like my SO a lot and as far as I know the feeling is mutual. Anyway we've been in a long-distance relationship before without it being awful--or at least not as awful as spending three years in Stamford. Being a car/train ride away seems more important to me than being in exactly the same place at cost to other sources of happiness.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate your time! I'm really surprised to see so much support for YLS given the way these threads normally go. (ed.: and then three posters disagree ragily while I'm typing.)

Still really welcome opinions, especially good reasons to disagree (or agree, I suppose) with the wisdom about preftigious PI hiring. Given how hard these jobs are to come by anyway, I might have thought TCR was to give up the dream, go to Chicago and be happy with a legal aid job--and consider the fancy jobs again if I do really well there.
Last edited by everything_bagel on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

amf3208
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby amf3208 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:29 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:If you and your spouse make say 150k you'll be paying a shit ton under COAP. It's great if you plan to stay single and not make too much, but even someone with an AGI of 100k is expected to pay more than $1500 a month.


It is true that COAP effectively penalizes marriage in most instances (depending on what your spouse makes, whether you plan to have kids). But OP didn't seem particularly interested in getting married right away. I know several people--myself included--who are perfectly content to put off marriage for a bit longer and live in sin with our SOs so as to get more out of COAP. But yeah, any income-based program will create some potentially weird incentives regarding life plans. I guess one can call that "indentured servitude."

CanadianWolf
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:31 pm

Indentured Servitude: One must work for a certain period of time in certain jobs to repay a sizeable debt.

Essentially, it's more than just a financial stranglehold on one's life, as it limits job/career options & requires a substantial period of time in order to repay the debt. In short, lots of lifestyle altering restrictions.

amf3208
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby amf3208 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Indentured Servitude: One must work for a certain period of time in certain jobs to repay a sizeable debt.

Essentially, it's more than just a financial stranglehold on one's life, as it limits job/career options & requires a substantial period of time in order to repay the debt. In short, lots of lifestyle altering restrictions.


In the case of COAP, any job qualifies. At a certain income, the benefit disappears, but that's how any means-tested program works.

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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:41 pm

Essentially any low paying job. Regardless, if OP has no substantial student loan debt, then COAP is meaningless, or, rather, worthless.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:12 pm

everything_bagel wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:Pry Yale then but make sure your SO knows how iffy you are about your relationship. Would be kind of mean to make someone move (just so they can see you on weekends) when she might be expecting more out of the relationship.


lol.

Nony is right; I like my SO a lot and as far as I know the feeling is mutual. I just don't believe in marriage. Anyway, we've been in a long-distance relationship before without it being awful--or at least not as awful as spending three years in Stamford. Being a car/train ride away seems more important to me than being in exactly the same place at cost to other sources of happiness. Is this such a surprising take? If an LDR for law school is a really terrible idea, I'm definitely all ears.

I don't think it's necessarily a terrible idea for law school. Just by the way you phrased it before, I got the impression that there might, to some extent, be some asymmetrical expectations (e.g. I probably wouldn't, nor would most people I know, uproot and move for someone who categorically refused to formally commit to being with me). My apologies for that reading.

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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby kfh37 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:42 pm

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Last edited by kfh37 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

omegaweapon
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby omegaweapon » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:21 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Essentially any low paying job. Regardless, if OP has no substantial student loan debt, then COAP is meaningless, or, rather, worthless.


I mean, having 40k of debt can be a burden if you're doing 20k a year legal aid, whereas 220k on COAP is much less of one.

That's the main issue I'm trying to decide about. I'm torn between high a low prestige PI, and the pay is quite different.

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2014
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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby 2014 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:43 pm

Does anyone here understand discounting even SLIGHTLY?

The argument "Yale gives you a placement advantage for reasons" has been made by about 25 people in different ways but that is absolutely the wrong way to look at the decision. The only question that matters is whether the X% increased placement advantage is worth a quarter million in debt now. I think most of you are wildly overestimating the combination of that X% and the burden of debt. COAP is great (if OP falls under the cap) but what else is great is having no loan payments.

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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby omegaweapon » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:45 am

Sometimes I wonder if some of the minimal cost people here are trying to use reverse psychology by being as condescending and douchey as humanly possible in an attempt to get people to take on more debt out of spite or something.

It's better to not have any payments, but it's pretty comparable to have the school making them for you. If you make a lot of money from Y, you're in a much worse position. If you make almost nothing from C, even 30k of debt can fuck you, and the LRAP is way less flexible. The only reasonable thing to do is weigh the probability of both scenarios, and the degree of fucked-ness of both.

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Re: Yale vs. Chicago ($$$)

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:51 am

kfh37 wrote:I'm also involved in law school admissions (not at YLS), which is why I read these forums. I normally don't post, but I thought it might be useful to the OP to hear from someone who has actual experience with Yale and public interest (and $150k of debt) rather than rely on people who don't seem to know much about Yale or public interest law.

Good luck with your decision, OP. Again, I'd urge you to talk with people at YLS and Chicago rather than rely on anything anyone posts here.


Hey man, don't get all cynical about us. In my experience the average student at yale or chicago or any school will likely know less than TLSers who are 2Ls, 3Ls, graduates from those schools. There are a bunch of people from Yale and Chicago - a number with experience in high end government and public interest work at both schools - that post on here. Several have contributed to this thread, among many others. And others attend other top programs and faced similar choices or have navigated high profile careers from those schools.

Tons of Chicago and Yale students are successful at finding the jobs they want and if you asked them (or worse yet, asked a university administrator), they will hardly be objective. I don't personally know much about finding a job at the ACLU, legal aid, or civil liberties/constitutional fellowships, but I know that it's a lot less straightforward than landing in the private sector, in chambers or in government, all of which you could do from either of these schools (or Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, ect.). That's why I hedged towards Yale because of the greater resources and network for high profile public interest and loan repayment, whereas I'd usually say take the money. But I think OP could be wildly successful out of Chicago too.




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