Choosing between Emory and Michigan

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LawBound7
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Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby LawBound7 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:28 pm

Hey everyone! I'm trying to make a decision between these two schools, and I keep going back and forth. I would appreciate any help. Thank you

Here are my options:

The schools you are considering

Emory and Michigan

The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each

Emory 0
Michigan 110K, which I will cover with loans, which will probably translate into 130K at repayment

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

110K Loans for tuition ($130K at repayment), COL from parents, parents are not rich.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties

I like both schools, I would like to work eventually in DC, VA, NC, or relatively close to these states. Right after graduation, I can work anywhere I can find a job: GA, NY, VA, DC, NC to gain experience. I have ties to Virginia.

Your general career goals
I would like to have a shot at big law, would also be happy with mid-size law. In terms of areas of practice, I am willing to explore my options, open-minded about different options. I am not interested in PI.

Your LSAT/GPA numbers

166/ 3.8+

How many times you have taken the LSAT

Three
Last edited by LawBound7 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

adil91
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby adil91 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:28 pm

Go to Michigan

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Winston1984
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:31 pm

That's a really good price for Michigan. If you were solely interested in GA, and wanted to work at a small firm, I would say Emory. That's not the case, and I think Michigan is almost a no-brainer here.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby Capitol_Idea » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:32 pm

Michigan. It isn't even close.

The job placement is infinitely better, the debt isn't insurmountable (Full sticker would be pretty rough), and the degree is portable to most/all top markets, including DC.

LawBound7
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby LawBound7 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:44 pm

I need to clarify about Michigan COA. I will have to borrow 110K in loans, which will probably translate into 130K at repayment.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:48 pm

LawBound7 wrote:I need to clarify about Michigan COA. I will have to borrow 110K in loans, which will probably translate into 130K at repayment.

Yeah...so way below sticker at a T14...versus going to a TTT that's not in your desired region. How is this a question. It's really just "do I want to pay 130k to go to law school," and maybe you don't, but even Campos might say that's a decent price depending on your non-law options.

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:48 pm

LawBound7 wrote:I need to clarify about Michigan COA. I will have to borrow 110K in loans, which will probably translate into 130K at repayment.


Even if you leave Michigan at 130k debt, it's still a pretty good deal given the degree portability.

BigZuck
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:52 pm

Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:09 pm

adil91 wrote:Go to Michigan

LawBound7
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby LawBound7 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:16 pm

BigZuck wrote:Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.


I would be OK with NY big law. Thank you, BigZuck.

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sneezus
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby sneezus » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:20 pm

BigZuck wrote:Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.


how true is this, BigZuck? i'm leaning toward Mich right now myself (105k COA). i want to practice in the midwest and am mostly interested in PI, but i want that biglaw option available. is chicago/twin cities not realistic coming from Michigan?

edit: not to hijack the thread, but if you could expound a little on this, that would be helpful. not interested in NYC biglaw

BigZuck
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:27 pm

sneezus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.


how true is this, BigZuck? i'm leaning toward Mich right now myself (105k COA). i want to practice in the midwest and am mostly interested in PI, but i want that biglaw option available. is chicago/twin cities not realistic coming from Michigan?

edit: not to hijack the thread, but if you could expound a little on this, that would be helpful. not interested in NYC biglaw

Twin Cities doesn't sound like much of a market, pay is relatively low, and sounds like what shops are there are sweatshops. I wouldn't bother with it just based on what I have read about it on TLS. I'm guessing it's hard to get.

I hear conflicting things about the importance of ties in Chicago. I'm sure it's possible from Michigan but I'd imagine you're going to need solid grades at least. Part of people's argument for Mich's failures is CSO pressuring people to bid Chicago at OCI.

I think if you go to most any T14 you need to make your peace with the fact that perhaps your only big law offers will be in NYC. If that isn't acceptable, then adjust plans accordingly. One of the other refrains about Mich's failures is the students don't big NYC enough.

The main thing that's problematic to me is if someone is from, like, South Carolina and they want to go to, like, Northwestern and have geographic flexibility. "I'd like to work in California, or Seattle, or Texas, or Florida. I've never been to any of those states. But no NYC plz! K thanx!" I think that's a pipe dream.

So I guess it depends on what people mean by geographic flexibility.

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sneezus
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby sneezus » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:34 pm

thanks for the info. i appreciate it

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KMart
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby KMart » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:41 pm

Michigan is TCR for your goals/debt/etc.

LawBound7
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby LawBound7 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:10 pm

Thank you, everybody. I was leaning towards Michigan but wanted to make sure that it is the right way to go compared to graduating without any debt.

I really appreciate your help.

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KMart
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby KMart » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:11 pm

Enjoy Ann Arbor :D.

LawBound7
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby LawBound7 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:14 pm

Thank you, KMart.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:16 pm

BigZuck wrote:
sneezus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.


how true is this, BigZuck? i'm leaning toward Mich right now myself (105k COA). i want to practice in the midwest and am mostly interested in PI, but i want that biglaw option available. is chicago/twin cities not realistic coming from Michigan?

edit: not to hijack the thread, but if you could expound a little on this, that would be helpful. not interested in NYC biglaw

Twin Cities doesn't sound like much of a market, pay is relatively low, and sounds like what shops are there are sweatshops. I wouldn't bother with it just based on what I have read about it on TLS. I'm guessing it's hard to get.

I hear conflicting things about the importance of ties in Chicago. I'm sure it's possible from Michigan but I'd imagine you're going to need solid grades at least. Part of people's argument for Mich's failures is CSO pressuring people to bid Chicago at OCI.

I think if you go to most any T14 you need to make your peace with the fact that perhaps your only big law offers will be in NYC. If that isn't acceptable, then adjust plans accordingly. One of the other refrains about Mich's failures is the students don't big NYC enough.

The main thing that's problematic to me is if someone is from, like, South Carolina and they want to go to, like, Northwestern and have geographic flexibility. "I'd like to work in California, or Seattle, or Texas, or Florida. I've never been to any of those states. But no NYC plz! K thanx!" I think that's a pipe dream.

So I guess it depends on what people mean by geographic flexibility.

I'd like to supplement this info just a little bit. I work in the TCs right now and have friends at a lot of the big firms; it's somewhat difficult to get a job here if you have zero ties, certainly, but Michigan is one of the best midwestern schools, so you get a bump from it in the midwestern secondary markets. Chicago is better of course, but Chicago is a major market and I actually think Chicago kids have a harder time convincingly explaining their interest in a small market like the TCs in a way that people coming out of Ann Arbor don't. Regarding grades, good grades always help, but the ties question is much more important for someone coming out of Michigan than grades. Median grades and ties or a convincing story for why you want to move to Minneapolis should make you more than competitive for the firms here. But yeah, read the Faegre thread and others re: why working at a firm in the TCs may not be the best call for you.

Re: portability, it was rare for people at median in my class to strike out, even if they weren't bidding straight NYC. Median Michigan kids bidding DC and SF were at the most risk, given that those are the most selective markets and given that SF cares about ties, but if you had ties to the Bay and were willing to bid on non-Gibson/Latham/O'Melveny firms a little lower down the CA totem pole, you generally have a decent shot. DC cares less about ties but can be even more grade selective than SF, so if you want DC coming out of Michigan, you should really bid on LA or NY as a backup. We usually place well in Chicago, and as a quick side note to BigZuck, I don't believe Michigan apologists talk about OCS sending too many people to Chicago outside one particularly bad year right after the recession (I think possibly the year before I got to the school) that hurt our numbers for one cycle. I have a couple median friends (who granted were on law review with me) who landed big name Chicago firms, and Chicago has a whole bunch of NLJ 250, non-Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner type options that Michigan median kids who bid smart can get no problem. While our placement power isn't quite as strong as UVA or Berkeley, or obviously Penn, the lack of a central legal market has given Michigan an extraordinarily diverse alumni base geographically, so the degree is as portable as any in the lower T-14.

I will agree, however, than 0Ls who aren't going to a T6 need to be open to backup bidding NYC in the not-unlikely event that they get medianpwned at a lower T14 like Michigan.

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sneezus
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby sneezus » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:59 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
sneezus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Not sure what "portability" means in this context and I'm probably a broken record lately but I would make sure that you've made your peace with the fact that most likely your only shot at big law will be in NYC. If that isn't ok then I would adjust plans accordingly.


how true is this, BigZuck? i'm leaning toward Mich right now myself (105k COA). i want to practice in the midwest and am mostly interested in PI, but i want that biglaw option available. is chicago/twin cities not realistic coming from Michigan?

edit: not to hijack the thread, but if you could expound a little on this, that would be helpful. not interested in NYC biglaw

Twin Cities doesn't sound like much of a market, pay is relatively low, and sounds like what shops are there are sweatshops. I wouldn't bother with it just based on what I have read about it on TLS. I'm guessing it's hard to get.

I hear conflicting things about the importance of ties in Chicago. I'm sure it's possible from Michigan but I'd imagine you're going to need solid grades at least. Part of people's argument for Mich's failures is CSO pressuring people to bid Chicago at OCI.

I think if you go to most any T14 you need to make your peace with the fact that perhaps your only big law offers will be in NYC. If that isn't acceptable, then adjust plans accordingly. One of the other refrains about Mich's failures is the students don't big NYC enough.

The main thing that's problematic to me is if someone is from, like, South Carolina and they want to go to, like, Northwestern and have geographic flexibility. "I'd like to work in California, or Seattle, or Texas, or Florida. I've never been to any of those states. But no NYC plz! K thanx!" I think that's a pipe dream.

So I guess it depends on what people mean by geographic flexibility.

I'd like to supplement this info just a little bit. I work in the TCs right now and have friends at a lot of the big firms; it's somewhat difficult to get a job here if you have zero ties, certainly, but Michigan is one of the best midwestern schools, so you get a bump from it in the midwestern secondary markets. Chicago is better of course, but Chicago is a major market and I actually think Chicago kids have a harder time convincingly explaining their interest in a small market like the TCs in a way that people coming out of Ann Arbor don't. Regarding grades, good grades always help, but the ties question is much more important for someone coming out of Michigan than grades. Median grades and ties or a convincing story for why you want to move to Minneapolis should make you more than competitive for the firms here. But yeah, read the Faegre thread and others re: why working at a firm in the TCs may not be the best call for you.

Re: portability, it was rare for people at median in my class to strike out, even if they weren't bidding straight NYC. Median Michigan kids bidding DC and SF were at the most risk, given that those are the most selective markets and given that SF cares about ties, but if you had ties to the Bay and were willing to bid on non-Gibson/Latham/O'Melveny firms a little lower down the CA totem pole, you generally have a decent shot. DC cares less about ties but can be even more grade selective than SF, so if you want DC coming out of Michigan, you should really bid on LA or NY as a backup. We usually place well in Chicago, and as a quick side note to BigZuck, I don't believe Michigan apologists talk about OCS sending too many people to Chicago outside one particularly bad year right after the recession (I think possibly the year before I got to the school) that hurt our numbers for one cycle. I have a couple median friends (who granted were on law review with me) who landed big name Chicago firms, and Chicago has a whole bunch of NLJ 250, non-Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner type options that Michigan median kids who bid smart can get no problem. While our placement power isn't quite as strong as UVA or Berkeley, or obviously Penn, the lack of a central legal market has given Michigan an extraordinarily diverse alumni base geographically, so the degree is as portable as any in the lower T-14.

I will agree, however, than 0Ls who aren't going to a T6 need to be open to backup bidding NYC in the not-unlikely event that they get medianpwned at a lower T14 like Michigan.



thanks a ton for this addition. that puts my mind at ease quite a bit. i'm originally from Duluth, MN and my SO still lives in the TC area. hopefully that will be enough to get me back there if Chicago doesn't happen for whatever reason. there are worse things than NYC biglaw obviously, but i definitely would prefer it to be a last resort.

Big Dog
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby Big Dog » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:22 pm

I hear conflicting things about the importance of ties in Chicago. I


Don't necessarily need ties the greater Chicago area, but midwestern ties sure help. Otherwise, you could be considered a flight risk after a winter or two.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:25 pm

sneezus wrote:thanks a ton for this addition. that puts my mind at ease quite a bit. i'm originally from Duluth, MN and my SO still lives in the TC area. hopefully that will be enough to get me back there if Chicago doesn't happen for whatever reason. there are worse things than NYC biglaw obviously, but i definitely would prefer it to be a last resort.

I'm actually not convinced there are worse things than NYC biglaw. But yeah those sounds like solid ties, congrats and good luck.

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MistakenGenius
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Postby MistakenGenius » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:35 pm

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lawdoggy
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby lawdoggy » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:45 pm

zacharus85 wrote:Michigan. It isn't even close.

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runinthefront
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby runinthefront » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:56 pm

I'd take Michigan here. However, even with your goals, I don't think you'd be making a bad choice by choosing Emory in this scenario--even if the school's employing 20% of their graduates.

Nomo
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Re: Choosing between Emory and Michigan

Postby Nomo » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:33 pm

New York is the easiest place to get biglaw. They have way more spots than anyone else, which results in a number of law firms that are willing to take median and even below median students. Chicago is a little harder, you don't have nearly as good of a chance in Chicago with median grades - certainly not without ties. And I wouldn't even think about DC if I wasn't in the top third.

Michigan isn't a bad school for getting biglaw in Minneapolis (or Denver, Seattle, etc.). The problem is that there just aren't many spots in these cities. You have virtually no chance if you haven't actually lived there before. And even if you have lived there and have good grades you're outcomes are based more on luck than in the big markets, because there just aren't as many spots to go out.




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