WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

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WashU or Pitt?

WashU
7
78%
Pitt
2
22%
 
Total votes: 9

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rickgrimes69
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:36 pm

francescalegge wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:To answer your question, this would be an example of a job: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/a ... am-officer

This is not my region of interest, nor is this an organization that I have a particularly strong desire to join (although I wouldn't mind, certainly) but I think it represents the type of work and the environment that I am aiming for.

This is an example of a job where a JD is not required, but helpful. As you can see, they accept "Advanced degree in human rights, law, or related field"



An international HRL organization wrote:Minimum of five years of relevant experience in the Arab region;
Knowledge of and experience in the Arab region’s human rights and governance fields;


Now replace "Arab" with wherever you want to work, and you're going to get the same result. Unless I have missed something in this thread, you do not have five years in international policy work experience in the field generally, never mind actually in the region.

I would read Worldtraveler's international human rights law thread to get a better sense of the kind of background you need to get one of these jobs. They do not just go to people with collections of degrees.


Yes, of course! That is my career end goal, not my direct out of school goal. That is what I would spend the first ten years working towards :)


What do you anticipate doing when you first graduate law school? Getting hired as a junior program officer and working your way up? Even at the entry level, they are going to want skills and experience that you won't have because you spent three years with your nose firmly planted in irrelevant casebooks instead of working in your chosen field. Law school won't prepare you for this job nor will it help you get it, especially (no offense) from a mediocre school like Pitt. This is an HYS-level unicorn job we're talking about here.

lumpkin
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby lumpkin » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:43 pm

Wash U is a nice school and the girls are quite accommodating.

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:01 pm

foreverlost wrote:
francescalegge wrote:
That does help!! I don't know about the scholarship - I got my WashU scholarship over a week after the original acceptance and I was just admitted at Pitt a couple days ago so I've been waiting to see. But your message tells me I should call them and ask directly - and negotiate if I don't have one :)

I am aware that the tuition is separate for both :(

Have you only applied to the grad program so far? Also, which joint degree are you looking at?


I've been accepted for both programs, the JD/MPIA for Human Security and want to do international human rights stuff too. I went to Pitt undergrad and loved it, but I think I will probably end up choosing a better law school over a dual degree program. I might wait to see if the law admissions packet they mail you has financial aid info first, and then call them. Feel free to PM me for more info?


I PM'd you :)

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:02 pm

lumpkin wrote:Wash U is a nice school and the girls are quite accommodating.


I don't even know what that means.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:09 pm

You're going to lose out on your dream job because your competitors will be getting relevant experience while you're reading about contracts and torts. If that sounds like a good use of time and money to you, knock yourself out.

lumpkin
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby lumpkin » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:14 pm

francescalegge wrote:
lumpkin wrote:Wash U is a nice school and the girls are quite accommodating.


I don't even know what that means.


It means that they're very...friendly.

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:18 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:To answer your question, this would be an example of a job: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/a ... am-officer

This is not my region of interest, nor is this an organization that I have a particularly strong desire to join (although I wouldn't mind, certainly) but I think it represents the type of work and the environment that I am aiming for.

This is an example of a job where a JD is not required, but helpful. As you can see, they accept "Advanced degree in human rights, law, or related field"



An international HRL organization wrote:Minimum of five years of relevant experience in the Arab region;
Knowledge of and experience in the Arab region’s human rights and governance fields;


Now replace "Arab" with wherever you want to work, and you're going to get the same result. Unless I have missed something in this thread, you do not have five years in international policy work experience in the field generally, never mind actually in the region.

I would read Worldtraveler's international human rights law thread to get a better sense of the kind of background you need to get one of these jobs. They do not just go to people with collections of degrees.


Yes, of course! That is my career end goal, not my direct out of school goal. That is what I would spend the first ten years working towards :)


What do you anticipate doing when you first graduate law school? Getting hired as a junior program officer and working your way up? Even at the entry level, they are going to want skills and experience that you won't have because you spent three years with your nose firmly planted in irrelevant casebooks instead of working in your chosen field. Law school won't prepare you for this job nor will it help you get it, especially (no offense) from a mediocre school like Pitt. This is an HYS-level unicorn job we're talking about here.


If I can't get an entry level job out of law school, I probably can't get one out of grad school either. Three years of law school (or four for a joint degree) gives me some time to earn a degree, learn a fourth language, and take internships abroad during the summers. It also gives me access to professors, both inside and outside the law faculty and other professional connections I can use in the future. I can't afford to do unpaid internships (or even "paid' internships) if I'm not in school, so it has that advantage as well.

So far I have been able to use my education to do those things: intern for international human rights organizations in Europe, becoming fluent in a second language and adequate in a third, and live abroad for three years, intern at a law firm. Unfortunately, it's not enough. You're absolutely right. Which is why I'd like to take my education further.

Also, to be clear, I don't have any particular wish to be an attorney but law school also means I CAN be (fingers crossed that the job market improves - maybe I'll study cyber law). It's just another qualification, which doesn't hurt. If it doesn't work out, so what? I could do public interest legal work for 50K a year and maybe have some of my student loans forgiven. Or the dreaded doc review. Or legal research. Or whatever. I KNOW I'm taking a risk here :)

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:22 pm

lumpkin wrote:
francescalegge wrote:
lumpkin wrote:Wash U is a nice school and the girls are quite accommodating.


I don't even know what that means.


It means that they're very...friendly.


Well that's... a relief?

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:25 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:You're going to lose out on your dream job because your competitors will be getting relevant experience while you're reading about contracts and torts. If that sounds like a good use of time and money to you, knock yourself out.


Nahh. Human rights is a growing field, and international positions are becoming increasingly common.
Plus, I'm only 23 - I still have plenty of time to get a degree and spent 10-15 years growing my career.

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:28 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:To answer your question, this would be an example of a job: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/a ... am-officer

This is not my region of interest, nor is this an organization that I have a particularly strong desire to join (although I wouldn't mind, certainly) but I think it represents the type of work and the environment that I am aiming for.

This is an example of a job where a JD is not required, but helpful. As you can see, they accept "Advanced degree in human rights, law, or related field"



An international HRL organization wrote:Minimum of five years of relevant experience in the Arab region;
Knowledge of and experience in the Arab region’s human rights and governance fields;


Now replace "Arab" with wherever you want to work, and you're going to get the same result. Unless I have missed something in this thread, you do not have five years in international policy work experience in the field generally, never mind actually in the region.

I would read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=149331 to get a better sense of the kind of background you need to get one of these jobs. They do not just go to people with collections of degrees.


Reading through that thread now. Thanks for sending that my way :)

science burner
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby science burner » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:36 pm

francescalegge wrote:I can't afford to do unpaid internships


But you can afford to take out a mountain of nondischargable debt with extremely poor career prospects?

The cognitive dissonance in this thread is mind boggling

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:02 pm

We need worldtraveler in here

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:03 pm

science burner wrote:
francescalegge wrote:I can't afford to do unpaid internships


But you can afford to take out a mountain of nondischargable debt with extremely poor career prospects?

The cognitive dissonance in this thread is mind boggling


Well I appreciate that opinion but I will say that, at my age, my mother could not have afforded to take an unpaid internship. She took out a huge amount in loans to pay for school and now lives very well. She is still paying off debt but she is satisfied with her choice and would do it again. Obviously that's just one person but, then again, so are you. Also, that's sort of the point of debt - being able to afford something you otherwise would not be able to *at the time*

Whether debt is worth it is a very personal choice, I'm not sure why you see dissonance in that.

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Rigo
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby Rigo » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:07 pm

You should have applied to more lower T14. Guesstimating your stats here based on WUSTL scholly.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:27 pm

francescalegge wrote:Whether debt is worth it is a very personal choice, I'm not sure why you see dissonance in that.


All right, this thread just became worth it again.

This is a stupid statement. It is almost the definition of stupid. Generations from now, anthropologists looking back will wonder at how primitive our species must have been, for so knee-bitingly idiotic a statement to have been credibly uttered.

Let me break it down for you:

1. The 'value' in debt is being able to pay it off. You buy goods or services with money you don't have, on the assumption that you will have the money to pay it off later, accumulating interest so you end up paying even more all told than the sticker cost.

2. If you accumulate debt in order to fund a career goal, then the value of debt is proportional to your increased ability to pay it off. Otherwise, the education you funded isn't doing very much for you. Unless your self-worth depends on additional acronyms at the end of your name.

3. That's it. Debt is not 'character building.' There is no nobility to being poor. And furthermore, there is no real value to the education for its own sake unless you are going into legal academia. News Flash! You aren't, because only a select few people at Yale/Harvard ever do. You will never need to know the development of First Amendment jurisprudence or the rule against perpetuities, especially if you aren't even practicing law.

If you are seriously arguing that you want to take on debt and waste several years of your life because you just find the subjects in law school interesting (information you could get elsewhere for free, by the by), and that is 'worth it' to you in some abstract sense, then fine. But don't expect anyone else on God's green Earth to nod politely and congratulate you on your fine decision-making skills.

queerqueg
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby queerqueg » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:50 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:troll

timbs4339
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:51 pm

francescalegge wrote:If I can't get an entry level job out of law school, I probably can't get one out of grad school either. Three years of law school (or four for a joint degree) gives me some time to earn a degree, learn a fourth language, and take internships abroad during the summers. It also gives me access to professors, both inside and outside the law faculty and other professional connections I can use in the future. I can't afford to do unpaid internships (or even "paid' internships) if I'm not in school, so it has that advantage as well.


My first question to you is: have you tried to get a job in the field yet? I mean honestly tried- given it six months of searching? The best time for you to look for a job in your preferred field is right now since it seems like you are currently in a decent paying job.

If you take away anything from that thread, it's that international HRL types apply to law school after they already have significant, full-time, relevant work experience. They don't show up at law school and then hope to get the work experience after law school or during it.

I understand that it's more difficult to secure a job in a highly in-demand field like international policy than it is to find some fancy sounding joint degree program to accept you. That is because these schools are desperate for your money- they don't really care whether it works out for you. But you're not someone who is graduating from UG and is going to be out on the street in 6 months if you don't either find a job or go to law school.

francescalegge wrote:So far I have been able to use my education to do those things: intern for international human rights organizations in Europe, becoming fluent in a second language and adequate in a third, and live abroad for three years, intern at a law firm. Unfortunately, it's not enough. You're absolutely right. Which is why I'd like to take my education further.


First, only the first and the last of those things has any relevance to your education. You can learn foreign languages on your own time, and you can live abroad by getting a job there.

Second, the education is not the problem. The problem is that you don't have any relevant work experience nor have you seemed to have made a concerted effort to find any. Internships during school are not substitute for work experience. Work experience is a prerequisite. There is not a sliding scale where with enough letters next to your name an international HR org is going to hire you.

francescalegge wrote:Also, to be clear, I don't have any particular wish to be an attorney but law school also means I CAN be (fingers crossed that the job market improves - maybe I'll study cyber law). It's just another qualification, which doesn't hurt. If it doesn't work out, so what? I could do public interest legal work for 50K a year and maybe have some of my student loans forgiven. Or the dreaded doc review. Or legal research. Or whatever. I KNOW I'm taking a risk here :)


Cyberlaw is another of those areas that a bunch of kids with no experience go to law school hoping to study and then they find out that the only orgs that do that kind of work want people with tech experience. You need to pick more realistic career paths. Have you thought about landlord-tenant law? Criminal law? Even something like biglaw?

Please try to tell someone who is 200K in debt and working a 40K job or working in a 20K school-funded job that their JD "doesn't hurt." It's three years of your life that you could be using getting actual experience. I can't stress this enough- you could actually be getting experience in your chosen career path before plopping down money on law school.

Finally, you said you didn't want to be an attorney. Now you say you're open to the concept in the likelihood the joint-degree program doesn't get you to where you want to be. So which one is it? Are you dead set on IHR, or do you just want a white-collar job?

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:13 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:Whether debt is worth it is a very personal choice, I'm not sure why you see dissonance in that.


All right, this thread just became worth it again.

This is a stupid statement. It is almost the definition of stupid. Generations from now, anthropologists looking back will wonder at how primitive our species must have been, for so knee-bitingly idiotic a statement to have been credibly uttered.

Let me break it down for you:

1. The 'value' in debt is being able to pay it off. You buy goods or services with money you don't have, on the assumption that you will have the money to pay it off later, accumulating interest so you end up paying even more all told than the sticker cost.

2. If you accumulate debt in order to fund a career goal, then the value of debt is proportional to your increased ability to pay it off. Otherwise, the education you funded isn't doing very much for you. Unless your self-worth depends on additional acronyms at the end of your name.

3. That's it. Debt is not 'character building.' There is no nobility to being poor. And furthermore, there is no real value to the education for its own sake unless you are going into legal academia. News Flash! You aren't, because only a select few people at Yale/Harvard ever do. You will never need to know the development of First Amendment jurisprudence or the rule against perpetuities, especially if you aren't even practicing law.

If you are seriously arguing that you want to take on debt and waste several years of your life because you just find the subjects in law school interesting (information you could get elsewhere for free, by the by), and that is 'worth it' to you in some abstract sense, then fine. But don't expect anyone else on God's green Earth to nod politely and congratulate you on your fine decision-making skills.


I'm digging the creative interpretations here :) you've extrapolated wildly about my motives, thoughts, and desires - it's been a good read. I'd be interested on knowing how you put those skills to use in your work.

Also, I do appreciate the lesson in how debt works - but it's not "news" no matter how flashy you make it. Of course the goal is to take a calculated financial risk and hope it pays off, as is the case with any type of debt, not just educational debt. I think you probably have the capacity to understand this, yes?

francescalegge
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby francescalegge » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:26 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
francescalegge wrote:If I can't get an entry level job out of law school, I probably can't get one out of grad school either. Three years of law school (or four for a joint degree) gives me some time to earn a degree, learn a fourth language, and take internships abroad during the summers. It also gives me access to professors, both inside and outside the law faculty and other professional connections I can use in the future. I can't afford to do unpaid internships (or even "paid' internships) if I'm not in school, so it has that advantage as well.


My first question to you is: have you tried to get a job in the field yet? I mean honestly tried- given it six months of searching? The best time for you to look for a job in your preferred field is right now since it seems like you are currently in a decent paying job.

If you take away anything from that thread, it's that international HRL types apply to law school after they already have significant, full-time, relevant work experience. They don't show up at law school and then hope to get the work experience after law school or during it.

I understand that it's more difficult to secure a job in a highly in-demand field like international policy than it is to find some fancy sounding joint degree program to accept you. That is because these schools are desperate for your money- they don't really care whether it works out for you. But you're not someone who is graduating from UG and is going to be out on the street in 6 months if you don't either find a job or go to law school.


francescalegge wrote:So far I have been able to use my education to do those things: intern for international human rights organizations in Europe, becoming fluent in a second language and adequate in a third, and live abroad for three years, intern at a law firm. Unfortunately, it's not enough. You're absolutely right. Which is why I'd like to take my education further.


First, only the first and the last of those things has any relevance to your education. You can learn foreign languages on your own time, and you can live abroad by getting a job there.

Second, the education is not the problem. The problem is that you don't have any relevant work experience nor have you seemed to have made a concerted effort to find any. Internships during school are not substitute for work experience. Work experience is a prerequisite. There is not a sliding scale where with enough letters next to your name an international HR org is going to hire you.

francescalegge wrote:Also, to be clear, I don't have any particular wish to be an attorney but law school also means I CAN be (fingers crossed that the job market improves - maybe I'll study cyber law). It's just another qualification, which doesn't hurt. If it doesn't work out, so what? I could do public interest legal work for 50K a year and maybe have some of my student loans forgiven. Or the dreaded doc review. Or legal research. Or whatever. I KNOW I'm taking a risk here :)


Cyberlaw is another of those areas that a bunch of kids with no experience go to law school hoping to study and then they find out that the only orgs that do that kind of work want people with tech experience. You need to pick more realistic career paths. Have you thought about landlord-tenant law? Criminal law? Even something like biglaw?

Please try to tell someone who is 200K in debt and working a 40K job or working in a 20K school-funded job that their JD "doesn't hurt." It's three years of your life that you could be using getting actual experience. I can't stress this enough- you could actually be getting experience in your chosen career path before plopping down money on law school.

Finally, you said you didn't want to be an attorney. Now you say you're open to the concept in the likelihood the joint-degree program doesn't get you to where you want to be. So which one is it? Are you dead set on IHR, or do you just want a white-collar job?


I was joking about cyber law, I don't really have an interest in it. Anyway, there are many career paths that I don't actively want - but that I would consider if my dream career doesn't work out. Being an attorney is one of those things.

I'm not dead set on human rights, I also have an interest in humanitarian work and international criminal justice. I'm interested in working in an international setting working on legal and social policy issues. I am aiming high, of course, but I also wouldn't mind working for an INGO that focuses on micro financing programs for Roma, for example, or for an organization that builds CSR programs aimed at specific populations in a functional capacity that may be different than what I envision now. I don't just want a "white collar job". I have one of those already and I'd rather pursue what I'm really interested in.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:16 pm

francescalegge wrote: I'm not dead set on human rights, I also have an interest in humanitarian work and international criminal justice. I'm interested in working in an international setting working on legal and social policy issues. I am aiming high, of course, but I also wouldn't mind working for an INGO that focuses on micro financing programs for Roma, for example, or for an organization that builds CSR programs aimed at specific populations in a functional capacity that may be different than what I envision now. I don't just want a "white collar job". I have one of those already and I'd rather pursue what I'm really interested in.

"White collar jobs" are pretty much the only jobs that are more easily attainable by getting a JD. For the types of jobs you're talking about, if your current resume won't get you hired, the addition of a JD from Pitt or WUSTL won't improve matters.

If the job you're applying for doesn't require a JD, I can only see your JD from Pitt or WUSTL as being read in one of two ways:
(1) I thought I wanted to be an attorney and therefore went to law school but realized partway through that I didn't actually want to practice law so now I'm trying to do something else but I'll pretend that this way my plan all along.
(2) I am afraid of the real world and decided I would spend three more years in school instead of teaching or doing humanitarian work in another country even though that experience would be more relevant to my goals.

In terms of positions that do require a JD, you will be competing with people who were near the tops of their classes from much better-respected law schools for a very limited number of jobs. It is very likely you will not get any of those jobs.

If you want to do this kind of work and want to get a JD, find a way to get into a T6. Otherwise, you are sinking money into a losing proposition.

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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:42 pm

science burner wrote:
francescalegge wrote: PhDs at least are often fully funded with stipends


Sure, if you're getting a PhD in biochemistry or physics.

No, all kinds of PhDs are funded, even in the humanities/social sciences. The issue is getting a job after, because
arturobelano wrote:- For the love of God, unless you are admitted to a top-tier program in your field, do NOT pursue academia. I'm talking Harvard or top 5 in your field. Academia is more of a festering shithole than the law right now outside of a few STEM fields.

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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby Clemenceau » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:46 pm

How is this thread still going

Dear god

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worldtraveler
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Re: WashU vs Joint Degree at UPitt

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:42 am

People are being willfully dense with the "don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer" schtick. Yes, that's generally true but it doesn't apply universally. A law degree really does make sense for OP's goals, specifically a joint degree.

But the issue is that what OP wants to do focuses on prestige. A Pitt degree won't do a single thing for you in the IHR field, WashU either.

So OP if what you really want is to work in IHR, here are your options:

1. Retake the LSAT and get into a T10 school.
2. Go to a public policy school or similar MA program at an elite school.
3. Head to Europe and get an LLM in International Human Rights Law or an MA or something in a related field.

But really, people were giving OP shitty advice in this thread. She probably does want a law degree for what she wants. Not a Pitt degree, but a law degree.




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