W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

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W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Poll ended at Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:48 am

W&L $15,000/yr
2
33%
Cardozo $32,000/yr
4
67%
Chicago-kent $25,000/yr
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 6

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Silvia1225
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W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:48 am

deleted.
Last edited by Silvia1225 on Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:10 am

Unfortunately, due to the high cost of attendance & poor job placement of each school, you do not have any reasonable law school option.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:29 am

Consider retaking the LSAT. A few additional points should yield several full or almost-full tuition scholarships if you apply wisely.

For example: Did you apply to Seton Hall ? I ask because of its proximity to NYC & your current LSAT is at the school's 75% so a decent scholarship might be possible. Seton Hall's placement is reported to USNews as being much higher than your other options.

Also, your LSAT score of 159 is in the top 25% for West Virginia & their job placement is about 60% at graduation (much of this is doc review for large law firms). But at least you might get a full tuition scholarship.

I could list dozens of law schools that might offer an applicant with a 159 a full tuition scholarship but employment prospects are dim or the schools do not place in NYC area.

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Winston1984
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:49 am

I'm confused about the numbers in the poll and the numbers in your post. What is the total COA for each school? Not what people pay, but what you would actually be paying? Law school transparency has an excellent tool to use if you haven't seen it.

How many times have you taken the LSAT?

Sounds like you want biglaw, and that's not going to happen from these schools. You need to retake the LSAT or change your goals.

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:51 am

Not sure if this is still accurate, but much of Wash & Lee's placement is in one or two year clerkships for state judges in Virginia. These offer great experience but are short-term & at low pay. Regardless. W&L only places about a third of its graduates by graduation. Cardozo & Chicago Kent have even lower placement at or by graduation (about 30% each).

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:53 am

My understanding is that the poll numbers are annual scholarship amounts, while the net annual COA is listed in OP's original post in this thread.

Wattz
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Wattz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:22 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Not sure if this is still accurate, but much of Wash & Lee's placement is in one or two year clerkships for state judges in Virginia. These offer great experience but are short-term & at low pay. Regardless. W&L only places about a third of its graduates by graduation. Cardozo & Chicago Kent have even lower placement at or by graduation (about 30% each).


LST's Job Offer Timing section lists W&L's before graduation number at 49%. (Class of 2013 ) http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wl/jobs/2013/

Chicago Kent and Cardoxo "decline to make these data public"
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/kent/jobs/

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:25 am

I used the 2012 placement stat of 34.6% at graduation for W&L. Does W&L hire it's own graduates for short-term work at the school ?

LST shows that 11.2% of Wash & Lee's placement stats are for 35 hours per week of on-campus employment which is short term. And only 6.3% got their jobs through OCI.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:31 am

Silvia1225 wrote:Hi guys. I'm about to choose one school to put down deposit, any advice is welcome.

LSAT: 159
Basic information: International student, one year working as a paralegal in NYC, GPA was evaluated as "average".
Location: I want to work in new york, but I'm open to other ideas
Goal: a decent private sector job
COA: W&L 55,000/yr
Cardozo 58,000/yr
Kent 50,000/yr

I'm also on the waitlist of WUSTL and emory. I haven't heard back from a bunch of schools yet, I guess I applied a little late or for other reasons they are holding my file.

Many thanks!

Attending any of these three schools at these costs would be wholly indefensible under any circumstances. Do not do it.

I would say to find another career path, but if you really want to be a lawyer, as someone with an average internatonal GPA who in all likelihood would need biglaw, you're going to need to retake into the 170 range.

Good luck.

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Wattz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:32 am

CanadianWolf wrote:I used the 2012 placement stat of 34.6% at graduation for W&L. Does W&L hire it's own graduates for short-term work at the school ?


Ok, the 2011 number was 45%... And it was 37.7 in '12, not a big difference but get it straight man.

And the School Funded Jobs section is right beside it. Right around 8.5%

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:35 am

School funded jobs for 2013 is clearly listed in LST as 11.2%, not the 8.5% that you claim.

timbs4339
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:36 am

If you're taking out loans you are looking at 200K debt for a likely 40-60K starting salary. Not a good deal.

Wattz
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Wattz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:40 am

Was only counting bar passage required since that's what makes up the LST employment score. Really not trying to quibble over the details here, and I agree that these options at these costs are not a good idea. Although IF OP is going to go to one of these schools no matter what, I would say W&L

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:54 am

Winston1984 wrote:I'm confused about the numbers in the poll and the numbers in your post. What is the total COA for each school? Not what people pay, but what you would actually be paying? Law school transparency has an excellent tool to use if you haven't seen it.

How many times have you taken the LSAT?

Sounds like you want biglaw, and that's not going to happen from these schools. You need to retake the LSAT or change your goals.


Thank you for your reply!

Just like CanadianWolf said, I listed my annual COA. The COL is roughly 30/yr in cardozo (manhattan), 22/yr in WL (lexington) and 28/yr in Kent (Chicago) imo. I lived in manhattan for a while and was in Chicago often so this is how I predicted my cost.

I also should have mentioned that I am not eligible for loans so debt is out of question (thanks to my supportive family).

Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

I can still retake, but my problem is that I really want to attend school this year since I've left my job, and I need to take care of the student visa before school begins so June lsat would be way too late.

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:01 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Consider retaking the LSAT. A few additional points should yield several full or almost-full tuition scholarships if you apply wisely.

For example: Did you apply to Seton Hall ? I ask because of its proximity to NYC & your current LSAT is at the school's 75% so a decent scholarship might be possible. Seton Hall's placement is reported to USNews as being much higher than your other options.

Also, your LSAT score of 159 is in the top 25% for West Virginia & their job placement is about 60% at graduation (much of this is doc review for large law firms). But at least you might get a full tuition scholarship.

I could list dozens of law schools that might offer an applicant with a 159 a full tuition scholarship but employment prospects are dim or the schools do not place in NYC area.


Thanks a lot for the info! I didn't apply to Seton Hall because I know a few people from there and they used to told me they'd go to cardozo if admitted. not sure if it means anything but consequently I didn't consider Seton Hall. I just looked up their number and their new 75% lsat is 161, so maybe similar scholarship I guess.

I'll definitely wait for other schools as long as I can, but if I have to choose one to put down deposit now, what's your opinion?

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:11 am

Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:22 am

zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:27 am

Silvia1225 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.

these schools suck and aren't worth paying this much (or really any) money for. If your parents are so rich that this is a drop in the bucket, you're better off taking a three year vacay and resigning yourself to some trust fund lifestyle. If it's not a drop in the bucket, you are effectively setting their hard earned money on fire.

Retake or don't go.

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am

Before depositing, contact each of the three law schools which you are considering & ask for more money. Tell them that you currently have three very similar offers & would like to commit if the scholarship can be increased. Make sure that the current scholarship offers only require that you remain in good standing; you do not want to accept a scholarship with a GPA or minimum class rank stipulation.

If you must, then consider depositing at the law school which substantially increases your scholarship & contains no stipulation other than to remain in good standing in order to maintain your scholarship award for all 3 years.

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:10 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Before depositing, contact each of the three law schools which you are considering & ask for more money. Tell them that you currently have three very similar offers & would like to commit if the scholarship can be increased. Make sure that the current scholarship offers only require that you remain in good standing; you do not want to accept a scholarship with a GPA or minimum class rank stipulation.

If you must, then consider depositing at the law school which substantially increases your scholarship & contains no stipulation other than to remain in good standing in order to maintain your scholarship award for all 3 years.


Thank you! I negotiated with them earlier this week, forgot to mention the stipulation tho.

I was wondering if you know anything about the admission process. I sent out applications in Feb but still haven't heard any decision from 6 schools, most of them are top20. I know my numbers look weak, but I have a law degree abroad and have good experience in human rights. My recommendation letters are good too, one of them is from a biglaw partner. I don't know if they are still considering me or silently rejecting me. Thanks :)

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:20 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.

these schools suck and aren't worth paying this much (or really any) money for. If your parents are so rich that this is a drop in the bucket, you're better off taking a three year vacay and resigning yourself to some trust fund lifestyle. If it's not a drop in the bucket, you are effectively setting their hard earned money on fire.

Retake or don't go.


I'm not a rich kid, never was. I'm not going to set money on fire, either. "retake" "don't go" are the most popular answers in this forum, I get it. If it makes you feel better, I know those schools are not so good. I did my research too.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:21 pm

Silvia1225 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.


If you're trying to end up in NYC, Cardozo is probably the best place to get you there. It's not a great school, but at no debt it's not really a losing proposition. Law sucks though. And biglaw really sucks.

Biglaw is never a must with today's repayment plans and is usually a gimmick. If anything is a must, it's government.

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Silvia1225
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby Silvia1225 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:46 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.


If you're trying to end up in NYC, Cardozo is probably the best place to get you there. It's not a great school, but at no debt it's not really a losing proposition. Law sucks though. And biglaw really sucks.

Biglaw is never a must with today's repayment plans and is usually a gimmick. If anything is a must, it's government.


Thanks :)

timbs4339
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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:18 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Silvia1225 wrote:Most people want biglaw, I also want it but it's not a must goal for me. I'm open to midlaw or smalllaw because they can be decent jobs imo.

You don't get it. It is a must by default when you take this kind of debt.


As I pointed out before, I will not be having debt for law school.


If you're trying to end up in NYC, Cardozo is probably the best place to get you there. It's not a great school, but at no debt it's not really a losing proposition. Law sucks though. And biglaw really sucks.

Biglaw is never a must with today's repayment plans and is usually a gimmick. If anything is a must, it's government.


Biglaw is essentially a prereq for certain kinds of private sector law jobs (i.e. corporate). If all you want to do in law is be an M+A transactional attorney, your first job needs to be biglaw. Even for litigation, biglaw provides by far the most entry-level jobs in certain specific areas of the law that also happen to be highly remunerative (antitrust, securities, deal lit, white collar, corporate bankruptcy). Sure, it would be great if everyone could work for the DOJ out of law school, but if you don't have those credentials the next best thing is a few years of white collar work at a biglaw firm.

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Re: W&L vs Cardozo vs Chicago-kent

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:08 am

Biglaw is like 1/4 of new attorney jobs opening. Lotta government jobs are open to people with no experience - not just biglaw that'll train you. Doj and big fed shit is a crock too. there are so many state and local govt positions out there that are great careers. Stop forcing your bullshit goals on everyone else like. The op is clearly cool with a normal job.




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