NYU vs Penn vs Duke

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rpupkin
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:34 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Another data point:

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html

I do think top of the class at NYU self selects away from biglaw 2L summer as much as any T14.

More than Yale or Boalt or Stanford? Why do you say that?

(I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems like something that would be hard to know.)

That's why I said as much as and not more. NYU gives PI scholarships to people with really strong numbers. Obviously numbers don't guarantee grades but with more than 5% of the class on PI full rides you have to figure there are some really strong candidates opting out of biglaw. But mostly I'm just anecdataing.

I didn't realize that 20+ students at NYU get PI-related full rides. (I assumed it was just four or five students.) That'll make a difference.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:37 pm

ya there's 20 RTKs each year.

Someone should compile OCI success data so we can have more accurate data

03152016
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby 03152016 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:47 pm

i will happily volunteer to put a spreadsheet together

let the leeks begin

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:50 pm

is it just something all career services offices have? Can current or admitted students get it easily?

03152016
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby 03152016 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:54 pm

i've seen numbers float around for several t14s, but i think some t14s don't release it
at my school it's disclosed during oci meetings so everyone gets it automatically, i know it's like that at a few other schools too

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rpupkin
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby rpupkin » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:02 am

Brut wrote:i've seen numbers float around for several t14s, but i think some t14s don't release it
at my school it's disclosed during oci meetings so everyone gets it automatically, i know it's like that at a few other schools too

With regard to the ABA employment data, there are standards and rules the law schools have to follow. Not so with self-reported "OCI success rate percentages." I'd be a little skeptical of the accuracy (or at least the uniformity) of the counting techniques of the various schools.

philly33
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby philly33 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:16 am

Nekrowizard wrote:
Brut wrote:nyu has generally led penn in elite firm placement
there was a study done on this a while back, i'll try to find it later
but yeah, they're both good for biglaw


I think some guy on the forums last year figured out V10 placement adjusted for class size for CLS, NYU, and Penn. CLS was slightly ahead of NYU, but both were considerably ahead of Penn. I'm too lazy to find the thread.

Edit: found the thread:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Whoever ran those numbers did not run only associates, which is pretty much the only subset we're concerned with. Here are the firm numbers for V10 NYC associates:

WLRK: CLS 18, NYU 13, Penn 11
Cravath: CLS 44, NYU 23, Penn 14
Skadden: CLS 48, NYU 37, Penn 18
SullCrom: CLS 45, NYU 36, Penn 20
DPW: CLS 60, NYU 71, Penn 11
Weil: CLS 35, NYU 26, Penn 19
STB: CLS 35, NYU 32, Penn 23
CGSH: CLS 50, NYU 63, Penn 18
Latham: CLS 5, NYU 28, Penn 4
K&E: CLS 30, NYU 29, Penn 4

Total: CLS 370, NYU 358, Penn 142

Normalized by 2012 class size (CLS 460, NYU 478, Penn 270):

CLS: .804
NYU: .749
Penn: .526

Here's what that should tell you: If there is a CLS advantage or NYU, it is very slight and reasonable people could argue over whether it exists given the greater proportion of PI students at NYU. But both CLS and NYU are outplacing Penn in NYC at a pretty substantial rate. But given that we basically already knew that, I don't understand exactly what the argument is.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=6908477


63% of NYU students go to NYC. Only 40% of Penn students do. That gives you about 301 NYC students for NYU and 108 for Penn based on the class size numbers you gave.

NYU- 358/301= 1.13
Penn- 142/108= 1.31

So Penn actually has a higher elite big law to class size ratio once you adjust for NYC placement.

BigZuck
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:21 am

Disappointed people aren't arguing about Columbia v NYU but glad to see they are arguing about something at least

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MistakenGenius
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Post removed.

Postby MistakenGenius » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:05 am

Post removed.
Last edited by MistakenGenius on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

03152016
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby 03152016 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:10 am

agreed
always refreshing to browse the on-topics and see the same people talking out of their ass
it's like coming home

03152016
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby 03152016 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:15 am

also they have an elephant gorilla avatar and set their location to connecticut so that everyone can be impressed they go to yale
not to mention any names

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:20 am

dont fuck with him, did you know he goes to yale

03152016
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby 03152016 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:21 am

philly33 wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:
Brut wrote:nyu has generally led penn in elite firm placement
there was a study done on this a while back, i'll try to find it later
but yeah, they're both good for biglaw


I think some guy on the forums last year figured out V10 placement adjusted for class size for CLS, NYU, and Penn. CLS was slightly ahead of NYU, but both were considerably ahead of Penn. I'm too lazy to find the thread.

Edit: found the thread:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Whoever ran those numbers did not run only associates, which is pretty much the only subset we're concerned with. Here are the firm numbers for V10 NYC associates:

WLRK: CLS 18, NYU 13, Penn 11
Cravath: CLS 44, NYU 23, Penn 14
Skadden: CLS 48, NYU 37, Penn 18
SullCrom: CLS 45, NYU 36, Penn 20
DPW: CLS 60, NYU 71, Penn 11
Weil: CLS 35, NYU 26, Penn 19
STB: CLS 35, NYU 32, Penn 23
CGSH: CLS 50, NYU 63, Penn 18
Latham: CLS 5, NYU 28, Penn 4
K&E: CLS 30, NYU 29, Penn 4

Total: CLS 370, NYU 358, Penn 142

Normalized by 2012 class size (CLS 460, NYU 478, Penn 270):

CLS: .804
NYU: .749
Penn: .526

Here's what that should tell you: If there is a CLS advantage or NYU, it is very slight and reasonable people could argue over whether it exists given the greater proportion of PI students at NYU. But both CLS and NYU are outplacing Penn in NYC at a pretty substantial rate. But given that we basically already knew that, I don't understand exactly what the argument is.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=6908477


63% of NYU students go to NYC. Only 40% of Penn students do. That gives you about 301 NYC students for NYU and 108 for Penn based on the class size numbers you gave.

NYU- 358/301= 1.13
Penn- 142/108= 1.31

So Penn actually has a higher elite big law to class size ratio once you adjust for NYC placement.

1) philly33, if i follow your exact methodology, penn has better elite firm placement than columbia. penn at 1.31, columbia at 1.21, nyu at 1.13
can you explain why penn beats columbia in elite firm placement?

2) you used grad location data for a single year for nyu
and compared it against data from multiple years for firm placement
is there a rationale?

3) you made the exact same mistake in your numbers w/r/t penn
again, is there a reason behind this?

4) you claimed you were calculating "elite big law", but chose informal data from a tls megapoaster over actual studies that have been posted in this thread
is there a particular reason for choosing a random tls post over the leiter study, or the other study posted in this thread?

5) related: why did you choose nyc v10 placement, a subset of a subset, to represent all elite placement nationwide, when there is superior data available?

6) under your methodology, a greater advantage is conferred to schools that send fewer students to nyc, especially since you weirdly limited the data to v10 firms specifically in nyc
what was the intention here?

7) your class size numbers are wrong. instead of checking the data for yourself, it appears you parroted data you found in a tls thread but did not check the facts yourself
why?

philly33
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby philly33 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:39 pm

Never said Penn was better at elite bit law placement. I was just showing why the numbers in that post were misleading. I'd love to see that study you're talking about though.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU vs Penn vs Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:04 am

I'd say if we're talking about "elite" firms in NYC, including Weil, Latham and Kirkland, but excluding Paul Weiss, Debevoise, and Boies Schiller, is the real misleading part. But lol at vault as usual

also should note for posterity that most of what was said in that "Elite Biglaw" thread from two years ago ranged from wrong to absurd, so for anyone clicking on the link, proceed with caution




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