BC vs. Temple vs. St. John's Forum

[jbagelboy]

Well Blue, after months hearing second hand your incessant attacks on Boston College Law School on this forum, I finally took the plunge into the nihilistic circle jerk that is TLS and decided to respond (after a few beers, of course. You people are unbearable sober).

As others have indicated, debt, scholly offers, and employment prospects are obvious factors in considering which law school to attend. I have no pretensions of expertise when it comes to the "which law school is for me" calculus. I just hope the original poster does his or her research and chooses the law school that will maximize his or her happiness.

Anyway, Blue, enough platitudes. Let's put our cards on the table here.

As I am sure you very well know, your campaign of bullshit is causing a small - yet potent - stir on our campus. Now, traditionally I pride myself on avoiding law school drama and controversy (I never participated in Constitutional Law II, not even once!). Yet, when I finally took the time to read up on your ongoing crusade against Boston College, unlike my favorite SCOTUS Justice, I felt compelled to break my long silence.

I was shocked to learn that you insert your diabolical hatred for BCLS into literally every post you craft, even if it's as forced and awkward as Jesse Pinkman at Skyler White's dining table. As such, I can only imagine how hard you creamed when you processed the title of this thread. Your day of relevance had finally come; for months you were Michael Scott, futilely chirping "That's what she said. That's what she said. That's what she said," until you finally got the perfect set up to your tired punchline (just a couple of mainstream TV references for the philistines lurking in the shadows). So, I figured this was the ideal thread to address your behavior.

While I can't say I've had the displeasure of meeting you personally, like many students at Boston College, I have heard things about you. Whatever happened between you and Boston College is entirely your business and I obviously would never publicly disclose what bizarre rumors I've heard about your situation (or your identity). But, and here's my point -- I think for the sake of OP and anyone else out there considering Boston College, please understand that Blue had a unique and adverse experience at BC Law and maintains a quixotic vendetta against the institution and its administration. Her in depth analysis and contributions, such as "BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away," don't even warrant the proverbial grain of salt. Her words are just shit.

You're insanely biased against the school and have devoted an absurd amount of your time to steering people away from Boston College. Hey, your agenda is just that; your agenda. But do not for a single second operate under the pretense that you're offering genuine advice to OP, when you're clearly just advancing your petty war against my school.

Admittedly, my response somewhat legitimizes your "retaliation" against Boston College, and perhaps even provokes further dubious attacks on BC. At some point in my limited online forum experience I believe I encountered the phrase "Do Not Feed the Trolls." I don't know if that's what this is, but whatever. Again, it's not my intention to attack you personally (although I probably did...is that what you call a Collateral Attack? I haven't started Bar Prep yet), but simply to expose your obvious bias against Boston College, and alert others (or at the minimum OP) to the game you're playing. I'm being sincere, and not flippant, when I say I hope your life gets better; hostility aside, your post history reveals a sad and broken human. I get it; law school can be miserable experience...but it'll be over soon, and you have the rest of your life to chase your happiness. Let me make this point again so it's not lost: going forward, I wish you the best and hope you find your peace. But I won't sit idly and watch you dilute the value of my degree - by whatever infinitesimal amount - by discouraging potential applicants from considering Boston College.

I won't think about you and this nonsense again (well, that is, until graduation, when we'll all have a nice laugh at the JD equivalent of the spinster Catlady giving a 1-star Yelp review to the dry cleaner she lives above because she thinks the undocumented workers there are tapping into her landline. Yikes!).

For anyone who thinks this diatribe is unwarranted, Blue literally compared Boston College to Cooley.

Stay classy, Blue.

lol you showed her!

15K per year is still NOT enough to make BC worth it. Isn't this TLS conventional wisdom? OP should negotiate for more money if he has offers from peer schools. BC is notoriously stingy. At $15K/year off, that's still a crazy amount of debt for a potentially grim outcome. I met a recent grad at a networking event who said that some of his peers' legal careers never took off and that they are bar tending. Is that an outcome you are willing to embrace, with six figures of student debt hanging over your head?

aw. we were all hoping for a more personalized show-down.

[chuckbass]

aw. we were all hoping for a more personalized show-down.

Where is the bluelotus we all know and love?

[El Pollito]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

[BlueLotus]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

What the hell does discouraging people from going into $200,000+ of NONDISCHARGEABLE student debt have to do with my fitness to practice law?

OP should negotiate for more money by using other peer schools' offers as bargaining chips OR better yet, retake the LSAT. If I had retaken my mid-160s LSAT and gotten into a national (read: T14) school, perhaps I would not be looking a public interest "fellowships" that pay a living stipend of $18,500 per year (yes, you read that right...barely above minimum wage)

[El Pollito]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

What the hell does discouraging people from going into $200,000+ of NONDISCHARGEABLE student debt have to do with my fitness to practice law?

OP should negotiate for more money by using other peer schools' offers as bargaining chips OR better yet, retake the LSAT. If I had retaken my mid-160s LSAT and gotten into a national (read: T14) school, perhaps I would not be looking a public interest "fellowships" that pay a living stipend of $18,500 per year (yes, you read that right...barely above minimum wage)

Aren't your grades abysmal? Why would they be better at a better school?

[BlueLotus]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

What the hell does discouraging people from going into $200,000+ of NONDISCHARGEABLE student debt have to do with my fitness to practice law?

OP should negotiate for more money by using other peer schools' offers as bargaining chips OR better yet, retake the LSAT. If I had retaken my mid-160s LSAT and gotten into a national (read: T14) school, perhaps I would not be looking a public interest "fellowships" that pay a living stipend of $18,500 per year (yes, you read that right...barely above minimum wage)

Aren't your grades abysmal? Why would they be better at a better school?

I have a 3.006. Not great but not "abysmal" either (at least for public interest employers). That's at least above the 3.0 floor for a lot of gov employers. I have no idea what my standing is as my school does not rank students.

[existenz]

Retaking the LSAT is credited. Don't go to any school outside T20 without a full ride.

[TLSModBot]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

What the hell does discouraging people from going into $200,000+ of NONDISCHARGEABLE student debt have to do with my fitness to practice law?

OP should negotiate for more money by using other peer schools' offers as bargaining chips OR better yet, retake the LSAT. If I had retaken my mid-160s LSAT and gotten into a national (read: T14) school, perhaps I would not be looking a public interest "fellowships" that pay a living stipend of $18,500 per year (yes, you read that right...barely above minimum wage)

Aren't your grades abysmal? Why would they be better at a better school?

I have a 3.006. Not great but not "abysmal" either (at least for public interest employers). That's at least above the 3.0 floor for a lot of gov employers. I have no idea what my standing is as my school does not rank students.

How is a 3.0 GPA even possible? I feel like taking an exam completely unprepared at most schools nets you at least a B. Add in the occasional B+/A- b/c prof randomness and you should be above that. Does BC have some kind of ungodly curve?

[BlueLotus]

IChaseAmbulances...why should you care what some anonymous online stranger says about your school? Do you seriously think that employers will not hire you or other BC students because some rando on the internet (arguably justifiably) said that it's not worth sticker price?

[BlueLotus]

How is a 3.0 GPA even possible? I feel like taking an exam completely unprepared at most schools nets you at least a B. Add in the occasional B+/A- b/c prof randomness and you should be above that. Does BC have some kind of ungodly curve?

Bad 1L year, but sharp upward trend (~3.5 GPA for 2L/3L year), so it averages out to a 3.0. There is a healthy number of folks below a 3.0.

[A. Nony Mouse]

well this just got interesting
but we're in the on-topics, and the topic is bc vs temple vs st johns
not ichaseambulances vs bluelotus

can you address her point about whether sticker is justifiable at a school with such a low lt/ft/jd rate?

Brut is absolutely right. Keep the personal attacks/debate out of this thread. (And keep in mind that whatever you think of her opinion about BC, Blue Lotus' responses here have focused on debt vs. job opportunities and have been perfectly reasonable. And this thread is not about her.)

[mrscooter]

blue lotus never not demonstrating her mental fitness to return to law

What the hell does discouraging people from going into $200,000+ of NONDISCHARGEABLE student debt have to do with my fitness to practice law?

OP should negotiate for more money by using other peer schools' offers as bargaining chips OR better yet, retake the LSAT. If I had retaken my mid-160s LSAT and gotten into a national (read: T14) school, perhaps I would not be looking a public interest "fellowships" that pay a living stipend of $18,500 per year (yes, you read that right...barely above minimum wage)

Aren't your grades abysmal? Why would they be better at a better school?

I have a 3.006. Not great but not "abysmal" either (at least for public interest employers). That's at least above the 3.0 floor for a lot of gov employers. I have no idea what my standing is as my school does not rank students.

Sorry, this is BS. You do know what your standing is. BC does not rank, but they give you percentages such that you know what percentage you are within the school. Median for '15 right now is 3.373. Top 40% is 3.418. BC does not give percentages below the bottom half, but using "Class Rank Estimator" (http://mylsn.info/rank-estimator/), you are somewhere around the bottom 5%. Considering you have an upward trend, it is likely that you were closer to the bottom of the class after 1L year.

BC is certainly a risk, but I don't think you would have gotten the necessary grades at a T14 to get you to where you wanted to be during law school. I hope you go on to become a great lawyer (and I don't think your law school grades correlate with your future as a lawyer) but at some point you have to stop blaming BC for everything and take a look in the mirror.

To the OP: Yes, BC with only 15K scholarship is a risk. I took the chance with a 25K scholarship, it worked out for me, but I know plenty of other people who it did not work out for. With that said, these people have all found something, just not exactly what they were looking for.

[BlueLotus]

Had I retaken the LSAT and gotten into a nationally-oriented school (as opposed to a regional one), I may have not been in this grim predicament. Just about all the T14s offer DIY public interest fellowships that let students with a demonstrated commitment to public service work at a qualifying org of your choice for a year or so, while being paid a living stipend by the school. BC doesn't boast such opportunities, even though peer schools like W&M do. If you're a public interest gunner, I cannot stress enough how helpful a school-sponsored fellowship is to get your foot in the door in this era of funding cuts. BC at near-sticker is very risky indeed. OP might end up being broken and disgruntled like me!

[IChaseAmbulances]

...

[TLSModBot]

You're certainly doing a great job advertising for BC.

[BlueLotus]

You're certainly doing a great job advertising for BC.

Sarcasm?

[Rigo]

You're certainly doing a great job advertising for BC.

Sarcasm?

Yes, and surely directed at these weirdos coming out of the woodwork.

[A. Nony Mouse]

People, please drop the Blue Lotus debate and just address the OP's original question.

[Rigo]

With a 15k scholly to me this is a no brainer.

Nah.

[BlueLotus]

IChaseAmbulances...why should you care what some anonymous online stranger says about your school? Do you seriously think that employers will not hire you or other BC students because some rando on the internet (arguably justifiably) said that it's not worth sticker price?

1. While you're an anonymous stranger here, that isn't entirely true at BC (as an aside, I obviously don't speak for all BC law students here. Some just feel bad for you and wish you the best, and I'm sure most don't think about you at all). As I explained, I care to the extent that you disseminate BS about my school and deliberately steer people away from it.

2. No, I don't seriously think employers look to TLS in developing a recruiting strategy, and will avoid BC because of what's said here. But as I indicated earlier, people who post in the "which school should I go to?" thread (such as OP) might take into consideration your opinion, which at times is expressed in such a way where your sordid history (and therefore bias) with the institution is not apparent. I think that's a reasonable position.

3. If all you said was "BC Law is not worth sticker" do you really think I'd take the time to make an account and call you out? I'm sure similar things are said about BC and every other law school every single day. I obviously wouldn't care about that.

Rather, you deemed it a "TTTrap" (whatever that means) and emphatically instructed OP to "stay far, far away." Have you already forgotten that? Recently, you also said having BC Law on your resume was the equivalent of having Cooley on your resume. Speaking of which, how is it that your opinion about BC at sticker is now only "arguably" justified. If BC were Cooley, like you said, there would be no argument. Please, drop the Eddie Haskell routine.

Again, I want to reiterate that I hope you land on your feet in terms of your legal career. I admit my original post was completely over the top and I apologize for that - I'm dropping my pitchfork and torch.

I think BC is a fine school with great people and has prepared me well for the years ahead. OP should explore his options fully and consider the economics of his choice, but BC is the highest ranked of the three and has the best big law prospects. I think it's also worth saying that Greater Boston is a better location than Queens or downtown Philly. With a 15k scholly to me this is a no brainer.

OP wants to do family law (which is usually the provence of small firms), in which case, he should keep his debt as low as possible.

I call BC a classic TTTrap school because: 1) desirable, high cost of living location, 2) respectable but not T14 rankings and 3) mediocre outcomes for those not at the top

I just think it's lulzy that you think some rando on the internet (me) is "diluting" the value of your degree.

[TLSModBot]

i read this post as meaning that OP made his goals family law because his grades/LSAT were crappy, but now he's getting more optimistic, for some reason, and wants to do something more glitzy than fam law. Is that right, OP?

If you want to do family law I would work for a year or two to try and kill your loans and save up some COL money then I would take a full ride to whatever school will give you one in the city you want to be in long term.

If you want to do something other than family law, first, what, and second, retake.

The actual useful advice ended here - this is the CR.

Either take the full ride wherever you can get it and go into the family law or other small firm fare, or retake and aim higher if you want something particularly competitive.

[chuckbass]

OP if you're still around:

BC is a non-starter for what you want to do at that price, and I would not attend St. John's under any circumstances. You should very clearly retake, but if you don't listen to this advice, I'd personally consider Temple.

Still more debt than I'd want from Temple, but it seems manageable. You could also limit the debt there if you lived cheaply in Philly, which is very easy to do. If you go to Temple, the best realistic scenario is that you're doing family law in Philly/NJ and if that's truly what you want to do, again I don't think this is awful.

However, there is a reason that a lot of peoples' goals change when they're in law school and there is a reason that so many people gun for biglaw. Biglaw is the only job you can get where you're all but guaranteed a job 2 years before you graduate and will make enough money to pay back whatever loans you take out. Law school is a pressure cooker environment, but even moreso if you still have to keep playing the game 2L and 3L year, graduate with no job, then take the bar struggling to come up with the money to support yourself, and then hopefully getting employed as a lawyer. You really should retake to put yourself in a better position.

[Rigo]

OP is from New York though, Scotti. Paying $60k more for Temple (a regional where OP has no ties) doesn't make any sense.

[BlueLotus]

With a 15k scholly to me this is a no brainer.

Nah.

Even with 15K per year, OP would still be going into $200K of debt at BC. Not a smart, sustainable idea if you want to work at a small firm doing family law.

Have you tried leveraging the St. Johns offer to get more $$$ at Temple? Temple's a peer school (also tier 2). I'm warning you though, the Philly legal market it s dumpster-fire.

[chuckbass]

OP is from New York though, Scotti. Paying $60k more for Temple (a regional where OP has no ties) doesn't make any sense.

Whoops jk back up based on the COA I was thinking instate and if it was instate then my comments still stand but now I see NY, nevermind.