Cardozo v Fordham

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Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:22 pm

Yes, I did calculate that.

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UOI4430
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby UOI4430 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:01 am

This is a terrible idea, but you've already made up your mind. I'm guessing you just came here looking for support for your bad decision. TLS is not exactly the place for that.

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moonman157
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby moonman157 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:05 am

Please please please be a flame

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:49 am

I have not made up my mind. I am truly considering my options. I do want to pursue a JD but if it doesn't make sense, then I won't. I am trying to find a way to make it happen because it is what I want to do. I am looking for people's opinions but I also understand that there are many people that our sour because of the terrible employment most schools had during the economic downturn.

In order to maintain my scholarship at Cardozo, I will need to maintain the top 20% of the class. If I lose that scholarship, I will not be able to attend and would have to withdraw. If I maintain that scholarship and graduate, then my thought is that my engineering background and potentially good academics will enable me to have a good shot at BigLaw jobs. Generally, Cardozo grads in the top 15% can get BigLaw jobs. With my interest and, hopefully, specialty in IP, I think that I will be able to get a job in IP Law and pay off the loans.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Post removed.

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:00 am

Post removed.
Last edited by buckiguy_sucks on Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:01 am

The employment at most schools, including Cardozo, is still terrible. When you can't place more than 60% of your students in FT jobs in the professional program they went to school to work in then that is terrible by any rational metric. If employment numbers go up, it'll be because schools slashed class sizes not because legal hiring is expanding.

As to your specific issue, I think you know that the chances of getting a market paying 160K job are low generally for Dozo students, but you are looking for information on what your chances are coming out of Dozo with an ME degree. If you aren't, then you'll be tacking on a not-insubstantial amount of tuition debt plus COL, which will move you into the 280K range. With Fordham, you are going to be looking at serious debt, well over 300K. That is, frankly, very difficult to pay back in 10 years even on a generous assumption of 5-7 years in biglaw, unless you keep expenses ridiculously low or salaries/bonuses go up.

What you have to understand is that from Dozo, getting a biglaw IP job is probably easier than if you are a typical JD, but it is by no means guaranteed especially because there is a contraction in IP hiring after recent Supreme Court developments. Also remember that the IP bump is really going to help you more in patent pros, not patent lit. I know a student at one of BLS/Dozo who is looking at biglaw jobs with an IP degree but is literally in the top 1% of the class. What you need to find out, and you'll only be able to do this by talking to 2Ls/3Ls or recent grads from those schools with IP degrees, is whether a median student has a good shot at these jobs. That's certainly the case at the other CLS in NYC, but I'd think it's less likely at Dozo.

EDIT: If the stip is 2.95, it's top 80% not top 20%. What does the language in the letter actually say?

Username123
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Username123 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:17 am

Matt_the_meche wrote:I have not made up my mind. I am truly considering my options. I do want to pursue a JD but if it doesn't make sense, then I won't. I am trying to find a way to make it happen because it is what I want to do. I am looking for people's opinions but I also understand that there are many people that our sour because of the terrible employment most schools had during the economic downturn.

In order to maintain my scholarship at Cardozo, I will need to maintain the top 20% of the class. If I lose that scholarship, I will not be able to attend and would have to withdraw. If I maintain that scholarship and graduate, then my thought is that my engineering background and potentially good academics will enable me to have a good shot at BigLaw jobs. Generally, Cardozo grads in the top 15% can get BigLaw jobs. With my interest and, hopefully, specialty in IP, I think that I will be able to get a job in IP Law and pay off the loans.


I think you might be mistaken in regards to the scholarship stip at Dozo. They usually require that a student be in the top 80% (I think the GPA cutoff is around a 2.95) in order to maintain his or her scholarship for the following year. Double check that and please advise.

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:18 am

Timbs, thank you for the post. This is the kind of post I've been waiting for.

Although, I think I would enjoy lit more, I would be open to pros. I've been involved in a bit of pros already through my undergraduate studies and I am currently pursuing a patent through my company now. If I can find a job doing pros that would pay the bills, I think I would be happy with that and could possibly move around later on.

As for the job market, the research I've conducted on the legal industry from the Bureau of Labor Statistics expects average growth over the next few years but the law schools are down in graduates. To me, this looks like an opportunity where the supply is diminishing and the demand is going to modestly increase. I know the first counter-argument to this would be that there are a lot of lawyers waiting for opportunities, but most BigLaw firms will not hire people if they are not directly out of law schools because they don't want have to retrain them.

Although, the IP industry may be changing because some of the recent supreme court decisions, the trend is that IP will continue to grow and be as important, if not more important, in the upcoming years.

My expenses are very low and I would continue keep my expenses low during law school and after graduating to pay off the loans in the shortest time period. My parents are also willing to help me with some expenses when they can and I have some savings so that I won't have to loan as much money.

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:20 am

Uschoolqb10,

you are correct. The requirement is a 2.95GPA which is approximately the top 80%.

I am currently negotiating with Cardozo to get the scholarship up.

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:22 am

The offer precisely says, "required to maintain 2.95 GPA (approximately top 80% of the class)"

timbs4339
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:38 am

Matt_the_meche wrote:Timbs, thank you for the post. This is the kind of post I've been waiting for.

Although, I think I would enjoy lit more, I would be open to pros. I've been involved in a bit of pros already through my undergraduate studies and I am currently pursuing a patent through my company now. If I can find a job doing pros that would pay the bills, I think I would be happy with that and could possibly move around later on.

As for the job market, the research I've conducted on the legal industry from the Bureau of Labor Statistics expects average growth over the next few years but the law schools are down in graduates. To me, this looks like an opportunity where the supply is diminishing and the demand is going to modestly increase. I know the first counter-argument to this would be that there are a lot of lawyers waiting for opportunities, but most BigLaw firms will not hire people if they are not directly out of law schools because they don't want have to retrain them.

Although, the IP industry may be changing because some of the recent supreme court decisions, the trend is that IP will continue to grow and be as important, if not more important, in the upcoming years.

My expenses are very low and I would continue keep my expenses low during law school and after graduating to pay off the loans in the shortest time period. My parents are also willing to help me with some expenses when they can and I have some savings so that I won't have to loan as much money.


Your largest hiring bump is going to be in pros, at least in the beginning. It's good you're open to it because it'll be relatively insulated from the recent SC developments and because in lit you are going to be competing with non-IP degree folks to some extent (I know people with lib arts degrees who went to elite law schools who do biglaw IP lit). Additionally, a lot of industry growth has been in either the bio/pharma or the software/CS field. You will need to research specific job prospects for people with ME degrees- my anecdotal knowledge is that the demand for newer associates is smaller but less prone to fluctuations. Check out the "Legal Employment" forum for more specific info.

It's always a challenge trying to generalize specific individual job prospects from those overarching stats. First, did you check BLS numbers for lawyers or for the "legal industry?" Those numbers include a lot of non-lawyer legal personnel such as compliance, paralegals, lit tech people. Their numbers are expected to grow, but this doesn't mean it will translate into more jobs for lawyers. Biglaw firms in particular have maintained or increased profits by just decreasing headcount. Whether this remains true three years from now is an open question. Second, whether there are more law jobs generally does not mean there are going to be more IP jobs in NYC biglaw or boutique firms.

The issue with trying to project from law school stats is that you don't know what they are going to do this year. There comes a point where the law schools cannot cut class size any more because they are hitting bone, not fat. You'd have to see whether NYC area and T14 schools are planning to increase or decrease class size next year. My own personal conjecture (admittedly) is that there's a lot of pressure internally this year from high paid admins and professors to increase class size because they are tired of seeing their salaries and perks evaporate. These are very greedy people you are dealing with which is why a lot of people on this forum seem so jaded.

Of course, the point of using these stats to try and predict job outcomes is that it's better than nothing. But the best information is going to come from convos with recent grads or people in the Science and Tech organizations who are 2Ls/3Ls. Go to the ASWs and have some candid conversations with them about IP job prospects from these schools- they will tell you a lot.

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:06 pm

Thank you timbs... What is ASW?

Matt_the_meche
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Re: Cardozo v Fordham

Postby Matt_the_meche » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:16 pm

Timbs,

Here is the link to BLS article I was referring to.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm




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