Michigan vs. GULC

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Hedgehogday
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Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hedgehogday » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:05 am

Hello,

I am hoping to make an informed decision between Michigan and GULC.
I read through the TLS Wiki, which I thought was extremely helpful, but wanted to see if there's anything else that I need to consider.
Both schools offered a comparable scholarship so financially they are on par (not taking into account differences in cost of living which I can adjust my lifestyle to).
I would like to pursue a career in public service/public interest and I'm eager to gain some great experience in policy/impact litigation/clinic during lawschool.
I am not a US citizen, but worked three years here in the States. I can see myself both working in the States or abroad after law school.
The pros I have outlined for each schools are below:

*Michigan*
- The administrations & financial aid office has been extremely diligent and professional. If that speaks to the quality of support that I'll get as a law student, including the career search process, I think that would be a huge plus.
- Prestige of the institution in general: quality of graduate programs outside of law school
- The said laid-back culture of the school and Ann Arbor
- TLS wiki says that since the smaller student body widely spreads out to different fields & geographies, competition may not be as cut-throat as it may be in other schools
- Also from TLS wiki, pretty much every faculty live in close vicinity from the school and hence tend to be more accessible
- Personal fan of professor McKinnon
- Family affiliation: My cousin went to their dental school, and her daughter's an undergrad there now

*GULC*
- I'm a Catholic and going to a Jesuit school will be very grounding
- Their 1st year alternate curriculum B that incorporates economics, legal philosophy & legal history sounds amazing
- I hear the faculty's field experience/insight is unprecedented (full-time & adjunct)
- Prestigious clinic program, with the grain of salt that competition could be high to get into the desired clinic
- Diversity of the student body, both in culture and in working experience
- More than 20% of students practice in public interest/ government sector after graduation
- It's strong in international law
- I've heard their Legal Writing program is great
- Their employment stats have improved every year
- It's Washington D.C.
- I kind of like the Hoya mascot :P

I am leaning towards Georgetown now. Having met a few GULC alumni in my town, I could tell that they were all genuinely happy people and I think it'd be cool to be a part of that collegial community.
I'm thinking if it's worth spending $500+ in airfare to fly out to Michigan for the ASW and I'm looking for more reasons to do so.

Any word of wisdom will be greatly appreciated!

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jbagelboy
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:22 am

How much will each cost/how much will you have to loan out for each, and where do you want to work

All those other variables you list are essentially of negligible import until you've established cost and placement

Nomo
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Nomo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:14 am

I agree with the poster above that we need to know cost and where you want to work. It will also be helpful to know what kind of work you are looking for.

PS: total cost can mean one of two things. If you're borrowing money it is the total amount you will owe when the first payment is due (remember to include tuition increases, loan origination fees, and interest). If you're paying cash then its the total amount you will pay. (If its a mixture of loans and cash then we'll need both)

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Winston1984
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:57 am

No idea about international placement, so I won't comment on that. I think this comes down to where you want to be. If DC, then GULC. If anywhere else, Michigan. They are basically peers, maybe Michigan is a little stronger, so it's not like you would be making a big mistake picking one over the other.
A lot of pros you listed for each school shouldn't factor into your decision at all. But if you visited both and really loved one over the other, then pick that one.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:11 am

GULC student here:

- employment stats are fine but Michigan will always be better
- it is a Catholic school in name only really - you seriously would not know Georgetown Law was affiliated with religion in any way unless you go looking for it.

Note that, with the possible exception of the clinics, none of the other factors listed matter in any way for positive employment outcomes. If the money's the same I'd recommend Michigan.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:11 am

Winston1984 wrote:No idea about international placement, so I won't comment on that. I think this comes down to where you want to be. If DC, then GULC. If anywhere else, Michigan. They are basically peers, maybe Michigan is a little stronger, so it's not like you would be making a big mistake picking one over the other.
A lot of pros you listed for each school shouldn't factor into your decision at all. But if you visited both and really loved one over the other, then pick that one.

this is wrong...michigan may not place into biglaw/clerkships as well as UVA anymore but it certainly has appreciably better placement than GULC. i can't speak to GULC's placement in DC, but that's one of the two most selective markets, and i'm sure its stats there are GULC-esque.

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dsn32
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby dsn32 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:20 am

Assuming they haven't changed over the last two cycles, Michigan has a far superior LRAP to Georgetown, which should be at the top of your list in terms of considerations.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:28 am

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:32 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:No idea about international placement, so I won't comment on that. I think this comes down to where you want to be. If DC, then GULC. If anywhere else, Michigan. They are basically peers, maybe Michigan is a little stronger, so it's not like you would be making a big mistake picking one over the other.
A lot of pros you listed for each school shouldn't factor into your decision at all. But if you visited both and really loved one over the other, then pick that one.

this is wrong...michigan may not place into biglaw/clerkships as well as UVA anymore but it certainly has appreciably better placement than GULC. i can't speak to GULC's placement in DC, but that's one of the two most selective markets, and i'm sure its stats there are GULC-esque.


This is credited. I focused exclusively on the DC market (and managed to do well), but it was NOT easy or stress-free. Michigan would, I imagine, have been a less stressful OCI experience. This should seriously be in your consideration.

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Hedgehogday
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hedgehogday » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:36 pm

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Using the calculator, there's about 40K difference in the Total Indebtedness at repayment ($184 K GULC vs. 144K University of Michigan). I aim to apply for getting help through the LRAP.

I am not decided on where I want to practice. I am not interested in Big Law, but more interested in clerkship/D.A.'s office/public interest/public policy work.
From the outside, GULC seems to be the right place to be for the kind of jobs that I'm interested in.

Nomo
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Nomo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:43 pm

Be careful here. The key benefit of any LRAP that's tied to IBR/PSLF is that your loans are forgiven after 10 years. But if you're taking out private loans, you won't get that forgiveness. All you get is a $2,000 check from the school each year, for 10 years. That money is nice and all, but it doesn't matter much when you owe around 2k per month.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby bruinfan10 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:55 am

Hedgehogday wrote:Thanks for all your helpful comments. Using the calculator, there's about 40K difference in the Total Indebtedness at repayment ($184 K GULC vs. 144K University of Michigan). I aim to apply for getting help through the LRAP.

I am not decided on where I want to practice. I am not interested in Big Law, but more interested in clerkship/D.A.'s office/public interest/public policy work.
From the outside, GULC seems to be the right place to be for the kind of jobs that I'm interested in.

A Michigan degree is more portable in that you have better job placement in more markets, and I'd be shocked if GULC can touch Michigan's clerkship numbers (although my stats are a little outdated--see this list maybe?). DA and other public interest work relies more on demonstrated interest than grades or pedigree so the credited response is generally to just avoid debt. So, I guess my question is, what exactly do you think makes GULC look more attractive for your goals? :p

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:54 pm

zacharus85 wrote:GULC student here:

- it is a Catholic school in name only really - you seriously would not know Georgetown Law was affiliated with religion in any way unless you go looking for it.



GULC (and Catholic) student here as well seconding this. There is, of course, a Catholic Student Association if you're so inclined, but that's going to be true at most law if not all law schools. Other than that, I don't think the vibe of the place is any more or less religious than anywhere else.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:43 pm

(BigZuck call out thread)

Seems like most of the stuff you care about is way, way less important than cost so I would just choose whatever is cheaper. If that doesn't feel right then choose whichever you prefer. If you can't figure that out then flip a coin.

Both are more expensive than I would be willing to pay but then again I'm BigZuck and you're not. I'm also not a PI gunner, nor an international student so there's probably factors there that are beyond me.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:11 pm

FWIW, there are a lot of international students at GULC (and not just in the LLM program). Shouldn't be a deciding factor, but it might mean A. you have more people to relate to and B. a better chance of doing well in class if there are plenty of other international students there who have the usual barriers to overvome(English as a second language, etc.).

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby BigZuck » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:17 pm

zacharus85 wrote:barriers to overvome(English as a second language, etc.).

Exhibit A for how hard of a barrier that is to overvome

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Hand
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hand » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:18 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Hedgehogday wrote:Thanks for all your helpful comments. Using the calculator, there's about 40K difference in the Total Indebtedness at repayment ($184 K GULC vs. 144K University of Michigan). I aim to apply for getting help through the LRAP.

I am not decided on where I want to practice. I am not interested in Big Law, but more interested in clerkship/D.A.'s office/public interest/public policy work.
From the outside, GULC seems to be the right place to be for the kind of jobs that I'm interested in.

A Michigan degree is more portable in that you have better job placement in more markets, and I'd be shocked if GULC can touch Michigan's clerkship numbers (although my stats are a little outdated--see this list maybe?). DA and other public interest work relies more on demonstrated interest than grades or pedigree so the credited response is generally to just avoid debt. So, I guess my question is, what exactly do you think makes GULC look more attractive for your goals? :p


I don't think foreign nationals are eligible to work as a clerk, work visa or not, so that can be set aside. OP, will you be eligible for federal loans? If no, and you need to finance this with private loans, then PAYE/IBR and PSLF are all off the table, in which case you should forget about a public interest career right now, with these figures. Will you need your employer to sponsor your work visa upon graduation? If so, then a public interest career is probably out for that reason as well.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:20 pm

BigZuck wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:barriers to overvome(English as a second language, etc.).

Exhibit A for how hard of a barrier that is to overvome


Of all the places to put a typo. Sigh.

Further evidence of the rigor of a Georgetown education, OP.

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Hand
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hand » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:29 pm

zacharus85 wrote:FWIW, there are a lot of international students at GULC (and not just in the LLM program). Shouldn't be a deciding factor, but it might mean A. you have more people to relate to and B. a better chance of doing well in class if there are plenty of other international students there who have the usual barriers to overvome(English as a second language, etc.).


The percentages of non-resident aliens at both of these schools are actually really close, as I've detailed here.

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Hedgehogday
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hedgehogday » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:31 pm

Hand wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
Hedgehogday wrote:Thanks for all your helpful comments. Using the calculator, there's about 40K difference in the Total Indebtedness at repayment ($184 K GULC vs. 144K University of Michigan). I aim to apply for getting help through the LRAP.

I am not decided on where I want to practice. I am not interested in Big Law, but more interested in clerkship/D.A.'s office/public interest/public policy work.
From the outside, GULC seems to be the right place to be for the kind of jobs that I'm interested in.

A Michigan degree is more portable in that you have better job placement in more markets, and I'd be shocked if GULC can touch Michigan's clerkship numbers (although my stats are a little outdated--see this list maybe?). DA and other public interest work relies more on demonstrated interest than grades or pedigree so the credited response is generally to just avoid debt. So, I guess my question is, what exactly do you think makes GULC look more attractive for your goals? :p


I don't think foreign nationals are eligible to work as a clerk, work visa or not, so that can be set aside. OP, will you be eligible for federal loans? If no, and you need to finance this with private loans, then PAYE/IBR and PSLF are all off the table, in which case you should forget about a public interest career right now, with these figures. Will you need your employer to sponsor your work visa upon graduation? If so, then a public interest career is probably out for that reason as well.


Yeah I am a permanent resident & eligible for federal loans (stafford & grad+). Thanks for everyone's input, this triggered me to commit to go to UMich Preview weekend to find out more.

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Hedgehogday
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Hedgehogday » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:34 pm

dsn32 wrote:Assuming they haven't changed over the last two cycles, Michigan has a far superior LRAP to Georgetown, which should be at the top of your list in terms of considerations.


Is this true? I've read that Michigan's LRAP salary cap can fluctuate depending on funds availability, and when LRAP funds are scarce not all who apply can bring $ back home.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:48 pm

Hedgehogday wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Assuming they haven't changed over the last two cycles, Michigan has a far superior LRAP to Georgetown, which should be at the top of your list in terms of considerations.


Is this true? I've read that Michigan's LRAP salary cap can fluctuate depending on funds availability, and when LRAP funds are scarce not all who apply can bring $ back home.


I can't imagine why this would be. Michigan law has a great endowment

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:05 pm

The big problem with Georgetown is that your classmates would be Georgetown students. I'm friends with some GULC LLMs and have been around the JDs at law school events. "Uptight" doesn't begin describe GULC JDs.

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cron1834
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby cron1834 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:54 pm

Setting aside the question of whether or not $144k is justified for a PI person at Michigan, why would anyone pay $40k more to go to GULC? That's a non-option.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Michigan vs. GULC

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:59 pm

AreJay711 wrote:The big problem with Georgetown is that your classmates would be Georgetown students. I'm friends with some GULC LLMs and have been around the JDs at law school events. "Uptight" doesn't begin describe GULC JDs.


Eh. As an actual GULC student, that's not really true as a rule. There are more people at GULC, so there are of course more uptight people there overall, but GULC is a very chill place otherwise and I don't think per capita there are more gunners. Now DC *IS* more uptight than most other places (certainly more so than Ann Arbor), so that's worth considering.

Very few of my classes have more than one eager gunner (even in the 70+ larger classes), and people are, y'know, regular people. Not sure who AreJay's been hanging around, but I can attest to there being WAY more DYEL bros than 'uptight' competitive lawnerds (you decide if that's a good or bad thing).

Again, not recommending GULC here. But I find the reputation as cold and competitive very strange and divorced from reality. Frankly, I'm surprised some days that everyone in class even bothers to wear pants.




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