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So need some help with the decision of CLS vs NYU. I just attended both ASWs and went in pretty positive I was going to end up at CLS beforehand. I have a very strong interest in PI focused work, and felt that CLS was genuine with everything they pushed about their PI programs. I also liked the Morningside Heights environment way more than Washington Park. Cost would be the same for both.

Then I attended NYU ASW and it really really surprised me. NYU had way more panels, students, alumni, who all came out to talk about the great outcomes and experiences they received at NYU. I mean they had four federal judges come to tell us how NYU basically got them there. The former Dean was on panels saying how he calls judges to personally recommend students as clerks. At CLS, most of the panels were in one large room and the small sessions ended up being so crowded they turned people away. I even spoke to the NYU dean for a bit as he was actually chatting with admitted students, the CLS dean came to every lunch table and did a stump speech and quickly moved on.

At CLS the PI people would make sure to qualify statements that PI can exist post firm, and then say that a lot of PI opportunities are after you go to a firm (implying that you should/must go to a firm first), NYU was much more supportive of having a purely PI interest. I will say I spoke to some NYU students who said that 85% of grads are not doing PI, and that it's being oversold.

So now I'm hoping to get opinions of actual students at CLS (and NYU)... was CLS just confident that they didn't need to pull out all the stops because they're CLS, and NYU is just really gunning? Or does CLS just not even have enough alumni and students that will come out to be on different panels/groups? NYU was actually quite critical of CLS clinics, implying that NYU students actually get to do real work and have amazing relationships with professors, while CLS does not have the same opportunities.

Will also add:


Number of positions in faculty-supervised clinical courses
Harvard: 626 (0.36 spots per student, 85.9% filled)
Yale: 625 (1.02 spots per student, 85.8% filled)
NYU: 445 (0.3 spots per student, 95.7% filled)
Michigan: 430 (0.38 spots per student, 100% filled)
Berkeley: 403 (0.47 spots per student, 53.6% filled)
Northwestern: 353 (0.44 spots per student, 93.5% filled)
Georgetown: 296 (0.15 spots per student, 91.6% filled)
Stanford: 281 (0.49 spots per student, 80.4% filled)
Duke: 258 (0.39 spots per student, 75.6% filled)
Chicago: 256 (0.42 spots per student, 80.1% filled)
Cornell: 243 (0.41 spots per student, 89.7% filled)
UVA: 201 (0.19 spots per student, 95.5% filled)
Columbia: 165 (0.13 spots per student, 100% filled)
Penn: 164 (0.21 spots per student, 98.2% filled)


Columbia is one of 2 schools that is 100% filled with its clinics. Is it significantly more difficult to do a clinic versus NYU?

I definitely wouldn't worry that CLS doesn't have enough alumni and students that will come out to be on the panels; I think they just have different focuses in their presentation for the admitted students days. Trust me, there are lunch panels of CLS alumni multiple times a week to talk to students about their current work, etc.

As far as clinical work goes, CLS and NYU have different definitions of clinics. CLS has two separate programs - "clinics" and "externships." Many of the clinics at NYU would be considered externships at Columbia, hence some of the disparity in the numbers. I'm a 1L so I haven't done any of the clinics/externships, but my sense is that if you would like to do a clinic/externship you will certainly be able to do it. I was told that I might not be able to do the 2nd Circuit COA externship as a 2L during the Fall semester since it's the most competitive externship, but my sense is that if I don't get in as a 2L I'd be able to do it as a 3L. This is for the most "competitive" externship at CLS.

Here's a list of the externships: http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-just ... /fall-2015

And clinics: http://web.law.columbia.edu/clinicshttp ... du/clinics

Interesting, thanks for sharing. CLS did talk a great deal about externships so that would make sense. But I had the sense that externships offer you less opportunities than clinics, on balance. True or nah?

DCfilterDC wrote:Interesting, thanks for sharing. CLS did talk a great deal about externships so that would make sense. But I had the sense that externships offer you less opportunities than clinics, on balance. True or nah?

They're very different things. "Fewer opportunities" doesn't really make sense to me, because I don't know how you're quantifying a clinical program or what opportunities you're talking about.

At CLS, a clinic is like a law firm within the school. You are working with other students and are supervised by a professor. You have offices that you work in at the school.

An externship is outside of the school—if you're interning at the DoJ, or at the 2d Cir, or at Cravath doing copyright work, that's going to be categorized as an "externship." Your supervisor isn't a full time professor, and you're probably commuting to an office somewhere in the city (or, you're living in DC if you're doing a term there).

Can't speak to NYU. I'm sure they have a solid clinical program.

I think you'd be better served by talking about which clinic(s)/externships you're interested in, and asking the schools to put you in touch with students who have participated in them. Experiences are going to differ wildly even clinic to clinic. (and, because a lot of this is work with real clients, it'll vary student to student depending on the matter they're working on).

ETA: if this is flat out striverism, I think externships probably provide you with more networking opportunities/greater PREFTIGE because you can work directly with people from outside of the school. The clinics more often have a poverty law component.

Not about prestige, more about getting as great an experience as I can (academically and professionally), and clinics struck me as the medium through which that gets maximized, versus an externship which strikes me as an unpaid internship that can be hit or miss. Am I on the right track?

Not exactly. I know smaug put this in bold, but seriously take it to heart:

I think you'd be better served by talking about which clinic(s)/externships you're interested in, and asking the schools to put you in touch with students who have participated in them. Experiences are going to differ wildly even clinic to clinic.

"Hit or miss" is probably just as likely in a clinical as it would be in an externship, and also varies a lot by what you want to do. If you're interested in housing discrimination, yeah, you might be better served doing a clinic over an externship with NYC Fair Housing. If you're interested in military law, you'd be nuts to turn down an externship with Army for a veteran's issues clinic.

DCfilterDC wrote:Not about prestige, more about getting as great an experience as I can (academically and professionally), and clinics struck me as the medium through which that gets maximized, versus an externship which strikes me as an unpaid internship that can be hit or miss. Am I on the right track?

I don't think you can quantify those things, especially in the abstract.

I'm in a clinic and I don't think it is really doing much for me academically or professionally. Personally, it's an amazing experience and I love it.

But, without tying it to some sort of goal, comparing clinics and externships within a school is impossible, and given that, I think it would also be pretty hard, in the abstract, to compare schools on that basis.

Is there an area of law that you're interested in? Is there a clinic that you wanted to participate it?

Like, if your career goal was to join the bronx defenders, you could probably join the challenging the consequences of mass incarceration clinic, or you could just join the externship they run—one isn't better or worse than the other in terms of the experience, they're just different.

For someone interested in copyright, the copyright externship is going to be way more useful than the mediation clinic. (probably)

There's just not a lot to say at the general level.

twenty wrote:Not exactly. I know smaug put this in bold, but seriously take it to heart:

I think you'd be better served by talking about which clinic(s)/externships you're interested in, and asking the schools to put you in touch with students who have participated in them. Experiences are going to differ wildly even clinic to clinic.

"Hit or miss" is probably just as likely in a clinical as it would be in an externship, and also varies a lot by what you want to do. If you're interested in housing discrimination, yeah, you might be better served doing a clinic over an externship with NYC Fair Housing. If you're interested in military law, you'd be nuts to turn down an externship with Army for a veteran's issues clinic.

Definitely taking it to heart. Going to e-mail the programs and both to learn more about those specific programs I'm interested in.

.

bitcheslovecake wrote:CLS is the worst decision I have ever made. Go to NYU. You'll get a job, regardless.

What bad things at CLS would a person avoid by going to NYU instead? Genuinely asking.

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