WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

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adeel
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WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby adeel » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:58 am

WashU - Full tuition
Cornell - $90k
UMich - $75k

International applicant. I ll have to take a loan wherever I go. WashU would mean borrowing from parents only. The other two bigger ones would mean I d have to arrange for external loans and all. Post graduation, I would need a biglaw job to pay off my debts. Long term plans? Well, as Keynes said, "In the long run, we are all dead".

Heart says UMich because of their focus on collegiality, and love between faculty and students. Brain (and overall TLS perception) says Cornell might be better because of their niche in the New York markets. Both are equally good schools, great reputation and alumni network. Both have awesome campuses, haven't visited (and cant since I m here in Asia) but what I know from pictures and all. Cornell s environment sounds a bit more cutthroat. WashU is awesome as well but people have warned me against going there since I am an international. Work visa issues,however, might mean that I d have to return back to my country, and there is no way I can pay off the debt working here. Our currency fails us, terribly. Help me out folks. If you believe in Karma, people, in turn, will help you.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:13 am

I'm assuming the $ is scholarship offered, in which case, Cornell. Not sure "friendly peers" is worth another 15k, and I'm not sure that Cornell is that cutthroat.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 am

adeel wrote: love between faculty and students.


Some sexy profs?

but yeah obviously Cornell, places much better than Michigan and is cheaper

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rahulg91
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby rahulg91 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:59 am

If you want NY then Cornell. If for some reason you'd like to end up in Michigan (Detroit, Grand Rapids) then obviously Michigan. If you want Chicago, then it gets a bit murky, but I'm pretty sure Michigan places better in Chicago compared to Cornell.

But Cornell kills New York compared to WUSTL or Michigan.

P.S. I don't know anything about CoL in Ithaca, but Ann Arbor is kind of expensive.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:06 am

rahulg91 wrote:If you want NY then Cornell. If for some reason you'd like to end up in Michigan (Detroit, Grand Rapids) then obviously Michigan. If you want Chicago, then it gets a bit murky, but I'm pretty sure Michigan places better in Chicago compared to Cornell.

But Cornell kills New York compared to WUSTL or Michigan.

P.S. I don't know anything about CoL in Ithaca, but Ann Arbor is kind of expensive.


There aren't any legal jobs in Detroit or GR that would service six figure debt

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KMart
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby KMart » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:09 am

Cornell. I haven't heard of it being overly cutthroat. You should really like it and it should find you a job to manage the debt.

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rahulg91
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby rahulg91 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:11 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
rahulg91 wrote:If you want NY then Cornell. If for some reason you'd like to end up in Michigan (Detroit, Grand Rapids) then obviously Michigan. If you want Chicago, then it gets a bit murky, but I'm pretty sure Michigan places better in Chicago compared to Cornell.

But Cornell kills New York compared to WUSTL or Michigan.

P.S. I don't know anything about CoL in Ithaca, but Ann Arbor is kind of expensive.


There aren't any legal jobs in Detroit or GR that would service six figure debt


:roll: Yes there are, and they're people coming out of Michigan get them. About 20% of the class ends up in either Detroit or GR.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:15 am

There are a few but class sizes are tiny and no one should go to Michigan law expecting to land a biglaw job in Michigan

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Yea All Right
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby Yea All Right » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:52 am

Cornell 1L here, if you pick Michigan over Cornell for something, don't let it be collegiality; every school will tell you they have an atmosphere of collegiality. Heck, I'll do it now: with a 200-person class, almost everyone at Cornell knows each other (if not by name, then by face), and people like each other except for the overly intense few you'll get anywhere. I even know a lot of 2Ls, and I wouldn't say I go out of my way to meet them.

Pick based on job outcomes, target markets, and of course cost. Good luck.

adeel
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby adeel » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:41 am

Cornell's tuition is ~60k. UMich's tuition is ~55k. So the differential in scholarship means the same in terms of tuition. CoL is pretty much the same too. Why has UMich fallen so much in grace in the eyes of TLS? ATL ranks it 10, above Cornell (which I guess is 12th). I understand Cornell has much better placement record in BigLaw, especially in New York. But how about placement options in the rest of the US or internationally? Despite it being a misnomer now, which of the two degrees are more global?

umichman
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby umichman » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:40 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:There are a few but class sizes are tiny and no one should go to Michigan law expecting to land a biglaw job in Michigan


if you are from michigan uve got a good shot at landing big/mid law here. but ur right, international students have very little chance. i suggest cornell give you such a good shot in NY.

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koval
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby koval » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:58 am

adeel wrote:Cornell's tuition is ~60k. UMich's tuition is ~55k. So the differential in scholarship means the same in terms of tuition. CoL is pretty much the same too. Why has UMich fallen so much in grace in the eyes of TLS? ATL ranks it 10, above Cornell (which I guess is 12th). I understand Cornell has much better placement record in BigLaw, especially in New York. But how about placement options in the rest of the US or internationally? Despite it being a misnomer now, which of the two degrees are more global?


Cornell 1L here. Look, it seems like you want to go with Michigan, but no one here is going to tell you (or shouldn't tell you) that Michigan has better employment outcomes (they don't), or that either degree is "global" (don't go to either if you want to work internationally).

In terms of the environment of the school, my class works incredibly hard, competes at everything, and parties way harder than I ever thought a law school would. If you don't like the "work hard, play hard" mentality, then maybe go with Michigan.

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jbagelboy
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 am

Im fine with a tossup b/t Cornell and Michigan here. If you think you'd be a lot happier at one over the other, go with it. The schools are peers and cost delta is minimal.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:44 am

Yeah this is probably the part where cafeteria food/internet speed/hotness of single girls considerations come into play. In terms of hot singles to mingle, Ann Arbor probably wins out. Well, it's a great college town, and is more fun than Ithica. But Cornell has Ivy name prestige, and smokin' hot geography.

Compare library square footage, maybe?

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downbeat14
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:51 am

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:51 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:Yeah this is probably the part where cafeteria food/internet speed/hotness of single girls considerations come into play. In terms of hot singles to mingle, Ann Arbor probably wins out. Well, it's a great college town, and is more fun than Ithica. But Cornell has Ivy name prestige, and smokin' hot geography.

Compare library square footage, maybe?


I'd def wager more hot singles at Michigan as well

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downbeat14
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:56 am

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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downbeat14
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:01 am

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adeel
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby adeel » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:21 am

Cornell seems to be a clear winner here.

croissantlover
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby croissantlover » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:16 pm

Foreign student at T14 here.

1. Just being curious. Are you going to sign up the debt from your home country's bank? To my knowledge people who need a work visa can't get loans from federal government.

2. Paying off the debt does NOT necessarily means that you have to work in the U.S. If you can get a BigLaw offer then you get the same pay (i.e., 160k) even if you work in their international office. The issue here is that whether BigLaw has a strong presence in your home country or nearby region or not. If you are from East Asia, Middle East, or Europe, then your language skill might be quite marketable in job searching.

3. The difference between Cornell and Mich. in terms of working internationally hinges on which school has a better BigLaw prospect. For us "working internationally" is NOT getting those unicorn jobs in BigFed or some fancy international organizations. Those jobs are for T3, or perhaps T6, so in that sense it makes no difference whether you go to Mich. or Cornell, since (1) they are not T6, and (2) you're not U.S. citizen (which makes you unable to work for Feds).

"Working internationally" means working at a BigLaw office outside of the U.S., as I mentioned in #2. People on TLS don't really talk about this, because this is not a traditional route for American students.

How to work for a BigLaw office outside of the U.S.? It's basically the same thing: get a 2L SA offer, turn that into a return offer, start in an international office (which pays you 160k, and perhaps with a great COLA package), or start in a major U.S. city and transfer to an international office after a few years.

4. Therefore the conclusion is that Cornell is more likely the winner here. It has better BigLaw numbers and the scholarship offer is legit.

P.S.: Not sure where you're from, but in Asia Cornell is a big thing since it's an Ivy, especially comparing to big state schools like Mich. I'm not saying that Cornell has better lay prestige than Mich. or even that lay prestige matters. The point here is that (1) if you leave the U.S. or (2) leave the U.S. AND the law, then it's better to get an Ivy diploma because people in the other parts of the world usually know what "Ivy" means, though they don't really watch American college football games.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:18 am

So I actually work in NYC biglaw (unlike pretty much everyone in this thread).

It's going to be very hard for you to get a biglaw job in the first place, let alone in the US. We rarely hire people who need visas and everyone we have hired who is an international has been more or less forced to work abroad/whereever they come from. The exception, for whatever reason, is Canadians. It's not as hard for Canadians to work in the US.

If you're taking out private loans to go to law school, I just probably wouldn't go.

Also, in Asia I'm pretty sure it goes Harvard>Stanford>Yale>Berkeley >UCLA, and that's about it for name recognition of American universities.

croissantlover
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby croissantlover » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:01 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:So I actually work in NYC biglaw (unlike pretty much everyone in this thread).

It's going to be very hard for you to get a biglaw job in the first place, let alone in the US. We rarely hire people who need visas and everyone we have hired who is an international has been more or less forced to work abroad/whereever they come from. The exception, for whatever reason, is Canadians. It's not as hard for Canadians to work in the US.

If you're taking out private loans to go to law school, I just probably wouldn't go.

Also, in Asia I'm pretty sure it goes Harvard>Stanford>Yale>Berkeley >UCLA, and that's about it for name recognition of American universities.


Canadians need visa to work in the U.S., but they can get that under an easier channel created under NAFTA. Not trying to say that what you've said about the hardship for international students finding jobs in BigLaw is totally wrong, but I've seen many internationals (mainly people from East Asia) finding jobs in NYC BigLaw. Perhaps they do need better grades to persuade the firms to do that visa legwork, but the costs of getting an H1B (about $4,000?) is nothing comparing to what a good associate can bring to the firm.

So, it's indeed harder for internationals to find BigLaw jobs, but it's nothing impossible. Just get good grades from a top school.

HSY are definitely big names in Asia, so do UCB and UCLA b/c of their extensive alum network. I'd say that popular Ivies like Cornell and Columbia have much better lay prestige than UCLA.

Again, that's not the key issue here, since we're talking about Mich. v. Cornell.

MikeJD
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby MikeJD » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:57 pm

Cornell.

Informative
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Re: WashU vs Cornell vs UMich

Postby Informative » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:23 pm

adeel wrote:WashU - Full tuition
Cornell - $90k
UMich - $75k

International applicant. I ll have to take a loan wherever I go. WashU would mean borrowing from parents only. The other two bigger ones would mean I d have to arrange for external loans and all. Post graduation, I would need a biglaw job to pay off my debts. Long term plans? Well, as Keynes said, "In the long run, we are all dead".

Heart says UMich because of their focus on collegiality, and love between faculty and students. Brain (and overall TLS perception) says Cornell might be better because of their niche in the New York markets. Both are equally good schools, great reputation and alumni network. Both have awesome campuses, haven't visited (and cant since I m here in Asia) but what I know from pictures and all. Cornell s environment sounds a bit more cutthroat. WashU is awesome as well but people have warned me against going there since I am an international. Work visa issues,however, might mean that I d have to return back to my country, and there is no way I can pay off the debt working here. Our currency fails us, terribly. Help me out folks. If you believe in Karma, people, in turn, will help you.


I would go with Michigan. Debt isn't as bad as if you went to Cornell, and the chances at BigLaw are comparative. You aren't getting BigLaw out of WUSTL.




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