UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

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LVbucknell
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UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:40 pm

Hey so it's coming down to the wire I think I know where I want to go but wanted others opinions.

Career goal is to be a lawyer practicing environmental law particularly water law. Not big law or bust.
I realize the stats for big law at any of these schools is between 10-20 percent.

I am completely flexible in where I would start my career and would certainly commit to 5-10 years in either Charlotte, Raleigh or the Midwest. My long term goal location would be Denver, and I have a fair amount of connections in the area.

As far as cost of attendance goes each of these figures is over the course of three years, no living expenses included

UNC: 11k
Indiana: 14 k
Colorado: 29 k
BC : sticker

I've pretty much eliminated BC from my decision process but included it because I would prefer to go there over anywhere else in a world where finances do not matter.
I'm leaning toward UNC at the moment. I am also waitlisted at WUSTL at the moment.

What does everyone think?

The Dark Shepard
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby The Dark Shepard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:14 am

Presuming 29k as the total tuition for 3 years and not per year and adding the 60k in non-tuition expenses leads us to 90k for Colorado, which I think should be the only option you should consider(due to your connections and goal of ending up in Denver). 90k might be a bit much, but I wouldn't call it ruinous. Try to negotiate it down further if possible

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:25 am

The Dark Shepard wrote:Presuming 29k as the total tuition for 3 years and not per year and adding the 60k in non-tuition expenses leads us to 90k for Colorado, which I think should be the only option you should consider(due to your connections and goal of ending up in Denver). 90k might be a bit much, but I wouldn't call it ruinous. Try to negotiate it down further if possible



It is the total tuition over 3 years, so less than 10 k per year. UNC and Indiana would be only 4-5 k per year as well. I tried to negotiate with Colorado and they said they would be willing after I deposited. So there is that. I don't see why UNC for a cheaper wouldn't be a good option as well since I'm looking at moving to Denver 5-10 years down the road. Also environmental law specifically water is a growing field in Colorado and Nevada (where I am from). This is according to practicing water attorneys in Denver who are family friends. The mountain west is also the least populated region and produces the least amount of lawyers

My biggest concern with Colorado is the prospect of having no mobility outside of Colorado or the mountain west. If I decide for some reason I don't want to be there the rest of my life I don't want to limit myself in that regard. While none of the schools are truly national, I think UNC or Indiana are marginally more national in placement. LST led me to that conclusion.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby The Dark Shepard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:42 am

LVbucknell wrote:
The Dark Shepard wrote:Presuming 29k as the total tuition for 3 years and not per year and adding the 60k in non-tuition expenses leads us to 90k for Colorado, which I think should be the only option you should consider(due to your connections and goal of ending up in Denver). 90k might be a bit much, but I wouldn't call it ruinous. Try to negotiate it down further if possible



It is the total tuition over 3 years, so less than 10 k per year. UNC and Indiana would be only 4-5 k per year as well. I tried to negotiate with Colorado and they said they would be willing after I deposited. So there is that. I don't see why UNC for a cheaper wouldn't be a good option as well since I'm looking at moving to Denver 5-10 years down the road. Also environmental law specifically water is a growing field in Colorado and Nevada (where I am from). This is according to practicing water attorneys in Denver who are family friends. The mountain west is also the least populated region and produces the least amount of lawyers

My biggest concern with Colorado is the prospect of having no mobility outside of Colorado or the mountain west. If I decide for some reason I don't want to be there the rest of my life I don't want to limit myself in that regard. While none of the schools are truly national, I think UNC or Indiana are marginally more national in placement. LST led me to that conclusion.


While UNC or Indiana MAY theoretically be more national in placement (I don't necessarily buy it and other factors may be involved. I would imagine a lot more people are wanting to leave Indiana and NC than wanting to leave Colorado, as an example of a possible factor), none of them are national enough for you to risk not getting back to your current goals. Perhaps you will want to leave the Mountain West someday. However, you do not know this and you DO know that you want to be there at some point in the future. That's more than you can say about the Atlantic Coast or the Midwest.

If you want true geographic flexibility, you need T14

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 am

How many water lawyers are hired each year?? You may want to adjust your goals

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:56 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:How many water lawyers are hired each year?? You may want to adjust your goals


Not too many. It's not a large field but there also aren't a lot of law students specializing in water. Sort of a self selected field. From my experience in Denver it's a growing field, especially in the southwest. The Colorado River Compact has huge deficiencies and the drought in Southern California is finally exposing this to the general public.

Each of the big firms in Denver has departments specializing in water, and there are numerous boutique firms in Denver and boulder that only practice water law. I think it's a reasonable goal especially in the region I'm targeting. If that fails I have a job lined up with the Colorado River Commision ( one of the departments of the Attorney General in Nevada).

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:09 am

I say none of the above because you don't understand how law school and legal hiring works. Law school just doesn't make sense at this point in time.

Law schools place regionally, there is no geographic flexibility here to be found.

Once you acquire more focus then TLS can give you advice.

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:21 am

BigZuck wrote:I say none of the above because you don't understand how law school and legal hiring works. Law school just doesn't make sense at this point in time.

Law schools place regionally, there is no geographic flexibility here to be found.

Once you acquire more focus then TLS can give you advice.



What makes you think I don't understand the regional hiring of law school. I claimed I was willing to work 10 years in the market of my target choice, or Colorado forever. I realize If I go to UNC I will most likely work in North Carolina for 5-10 years.

What is not focused about 3 possible regions from 3 regional schools and a focused legal field?

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:28 am

LVbucknell wrote:What makes you think I don't understand the regional hiring of law school.

This:
LVbucknell wrote:I claimed I was willing to work 10 years in the market of my target choice

You don't just "put in your time" after acquiring your JD and then when the kitchen timer starts buzzing you're free to move on to another market.

You also prefer random schools that won't help you achieve your goals.

None of this makes sense.

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:59 am

BigZuck wrote:
LVbucknell wrote:What makes you think I don't understand the regional hiring of law school.

This:
LVbucknell wrote:I claimed I was willing to work 10 years in the market of my target choice

You don't just "put in your time" after acquiring your JD and then when the kitchen timer starts buzzing you're free to move on to another market.

You also prefer random schools that won't help you achieve your goals.

None of this makes sense.


That's definitely a possible scenario. It's not that I put in 10 years and I'm out. But if the situation was right I could lateral to another office, a lot of firms located in Charlotte also have office in Denver for instance. Lawyers I've talked to in Denver and Vegas (where I live, but would never consider going back) say that's a very real possibility. I personally know Indiana 3Ls starting jobs in Denver this fall.

Also less than half of UNC grads stay in North Carolina, so I dont believe I'll be trapped necessarily.

Just because I haven't been to law school yet doesn't mean I don't understand how firms can hire and the regional aspects of this. Are you a practicing attorney and have experience that lateral hires are a myth?

Why would Colorado not fit my interests? I want to be in Denver long term, environmental/water law which is the best program at Colorado and I have ties to the region.



The schools aren't random. Colorado, Indiana, UNC and BC have some of the strongest environmental and water programs in the country.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:17 am

You don't need to go to an environmental/water law program to get a job in environmental/water law. (Though I agree that it's a thing, especially in the southwest.) I think the point people are making, though, is that it's a lot more reasonable to go to school in the region where you want to practice long-term, and make connections and build a legal community there, than to go elsewhere expecting/hoping to lateral later. It's not that lateraling is never possible, but you'd spend 5-10 years in NC developing a legal community/network there, then pick up and move? A lot of things can happen in 5-10 years.

I also don't think UNC or Indiana are any more national than CU. That's not to say that you're trapped in those regions forever and ever, amen - just that they all have the same national reach, which is to say that they're all regional schools. If you're looking to move outside that region, you're going to face the same obstacles from all those schools.

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:33 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You don't need to go to an environmental/water law program to get a job in environmental/water law. (Though I agree that it's a thing, especially in the southwest.) I think the point people are making, though, is that it's a lot more reasonable to go to school in the region where you want to practice long-term, and make connections and build a legal community there, than to go elsewhere expecting/hoping to lateral later. It's not that lateraling is never possible, but you'd spend 5-10 years in NC developing a legal community/network there, then pick up and move? A lot of things can happen in 5-10 years.

I also don't think UNC or Indiana are any more national than CU. That's not to say that you're trapped in those regions forever and ever, amen - just that they all have the same national reach, which is to say that they're all regional schools. If you're looking to move outside that region, you're going to face the same obstacles from all those schools.


Thanks that's actually a constructive post, instead of just saying my options don't make sense.

I am also waitlisted at WUSTL. If I were to get in there would the national reach be any greater? Or lateraling later be any easier? I realize I'll be building a network in the region I go to school in and I realize this is obviously an advantage. I also have a network in Colorado in a number of different areas (family and previous work experience in the financial sector).

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:29 am

You need to drop the national reach thing. None of these schools will make lateraling easier. I agree with Nony, you're not physically trapped. But planning for a hypothetical move isn't productive.

You seem to want to base this choice either on your perception of the strengths of an extremely narrow subprogram, or US News Rankings. Both those things will lead you astray. The vast, vast majority of schools place regionally and are just strong in that region. Doesn't matter that UNC is ranked higher than Denver or vice versa. Also, rankings of sub programs don't matter. Also, I would be surprised if there's more than one or two water law classes at these schools a year. But even if they do have a robust program with tons of classes it doesn't matter.

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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby Informative » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:42 pm

If you don't want BigLaw, go with the cheapest option.

If you want BigLaw, go wtih BC.

If you aren't sure what you want to do, go with the cheapest option.

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:28 pm

Informative wrote:If you don't want BigLaw, go with the cheapest option.

If you want BigLaw, go wtih BC.

If you aren't sure what you want to do, go with the cheapest option.

BC for big law? And at sticker?

I'm sorry Jose, but that is a big time no way.

People also shouldn't neccessarily take the cheapest option every time when big law isn't the goal or they are undecided.

Just stop dude.

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:38 pm

Yeah I'm not paying sticker for BC even though two of my cousins did and both got big law in NY and SF graduating last year

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middlebear
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby middlebear » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:15 pm

LVbucknell wrote:I am also waitlisted at WUSTL. If I were to get in there would the national reach be any greater? Or lateraling later be any easier? I realize I'll be building a network in the region I go to school in and I realize this is obviously an advantage. I also have a network in Colorado in a number of different areas (family and previous work experience in the financial sector).


As a Denverite - people are going to be a lot more interested in hiring a CU (or DU) grad than someone from any of these others, probably including WUSTL. I think if you're serious about being in CO, you have to go with CU or DU, any other (non-T14) option, at least, would be far dicier than I would be willing to take on, especially with debt.

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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby FlamingDragon » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:03 pm

middlebear wrote:
LVbucknell wrote:I am also waitlisted at WUSTL. If I were to get in there would the national reach be any greater? Or lateraling later be any easier? I realize I'll be building a network in the region I go to school in and I realize this is obviously an advantage. I also have a network in Colorado in a number of different areas (family and previous work experience in the financial sector).


As a Denverite - people are going to be a lot more interested in hiring a CU (or DU) grad than someone from any of these others, probably including WUSTL. I think if you're serious about being in CO, you have to go with CU or DU, any other (non-T14) option, at least, would be far dicier than I would be willing to take on, especially with debt.



This is correct. Also, schools like UNC literally have probably never had someone go to Denver or the west once in the past 50 years, and you are incorrect that more than 50% leave NC after graduation (at least Short term). That stat is literally right on their website, so no.

Finally, I don't know where you're getting this "a lot of firms in Charlotte have offices in Denver" crap but that's also wrong. I work in Biglaw in Charlotte at a big firm and I can think of 1 firm int he city that might, if I recall correctly, which is Winston Strawn, who has a tiny office here and maybe a tiny office there. The others, including big payers and more regional guys, patently do not. That plan makes no sense - if you want to go to Denver, go to a school that places well there, especially if you already have regional ties.

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BlueLotus
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:31 pm

BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:35 pm

BlueLotus wrote:BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

Go on...

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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:37 pm

FlamingDragon wrote:
middlebear wrote:
LVbucknell wrote:I am also waitlisted at WUSTL. If I were to get in there would the national reach be any greater? Or lateraling later be any easier? I realize I'll be building a network in the region I go to school in and I realize this is obviously an advantage. I also have a network in Colorado in a number of different areas (family and previous work experience in the financial sector).


As a Denverite - people are going to be a lot more interested in hiring a CU (or DU) grad than someone from any of these others, probably including WUSTL. I think if you're serious about being in CO, you have to go with CU or DU, any other (non-T14) option, at least, would be far dicier than I would be willing to take on, especially with debt.



This is correct. Also, schools like UNC literally have probably never had someone go to Denver or the west once in the past 50 years, and you are incorrect that more than 50% leave NC after graduation (at least Short term). That stat is literally right on their website, so no.


This is wrong. At least if you literally mean "literally" as opposed to "figuratively." UNC has had a number of recent students end up in Colorado. Is that to say there's a huge UNC community out there? No. But LinkedIn shows there are 32 alumni in the "greater Denver area." The alumni directory shows over 100 in Colorado. It takes minimal effort to figure this kind of stuff out, and if you can't be bothered, you can at least pass over it in silence.

This is not to say OP should go to UNC. I agree that given the relatively low COA and his long-term goals, he should probably go to Colorado.

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BlueLotus
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:57 pm

BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

Go on...



The school literally destroyed my mental health. Incompetent shitboomers run the administration, high price tag (thankfully I got a scholly, but they are generally stingy), mediocre outcomes (stuck in the Vale myself, as are folks in the top of the class), terrible food, ghastly weather, cutthroat dog-eat-dog student body, recent free-fall in the rankings...shall I go on?

BigZuck
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:16 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

Go on...



The school literally destroyed my mental health. Incompetent shitboomers run the administration, high price tag (thankfully I got a scholly, but they are generally stingy), mediocre outcomes (stuck in the Vale myself, as are folks in the top of the class), terrible food, ghastly weather, cutthroat dog-eat-dog student body, recent free-fall in the rankings...shall I go on?


Some of that stuff doesn't really matter (like food)

How is incompetent admin, expensive, mediocre outcomes, and competitive students any different from virtually anywhere else?

LVbucknell
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby LVbucknell » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:19 pm

BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

Go on...



The school literally destroyed my mental health. Incompetent shitboomers run the administration, high price tag (thankfully I got a scholly, but they are generally stingy), mediocre outcomes (stuck in the Vale myself, as are folks in the top of the class), terrible food, ghastly weather, cutthroat dog-eat-dog student body, recent free-fall in the rankings...shall I go on?


Some of that stuff doesn't really matter (like food)

How is incompetent admin, expensive, mediocre outcomes, and competitive students any different from virtually anywhere else?



Could just be your perspective. Maybe law school culture wasn't a good fit. But my cousin graduated from BC this past year. Raved about the people, administration, faculty and so on.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: UNC vs Indiana vs Colorado vs BC

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:30 pm

BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:BC is a TTTrap. Stay far, far away. Worst life decision I've ever made.

Go on...



The school literally destroyed my mental health. Incompetent shitboomers run the administration, high price tag (thankfully I got a scholly, but they are generally stingy), mediocre outcomes (stuck in the Vale myself, as are folks in the top of the class), terrible food, ghastly weather, cutthroat dog-eat-dog student body, recent free-fall in the rankings...shall I go on?


Some of that stuff doesn't really matter (like food)

How is incompetent admin, expensive, mediocre outcomes, and competitive students any different from virtually anywhere else?

And if these things literally destroyed your mental health, maybe law isn't for you?




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