BL Partners Study (RED) Rep Feedback Loop (BLUE) (SEE OP)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
KMart
Posts: 3628
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:25 am

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby KMart » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:18 pm

Middlebear - tread lightly. You will be reported. As he clearly outlined and underlined above.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:19 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
brianiac wrote:I don't deserve the hate in this thread. All I'm trying to do is introduce the board to different ways of looking at this problem. It is easy and thoughtless for you people to point to some arbitrary magazine's T14 ranking and say, look here, this is the best school. It is something entirely different to carefully investigate different varied studies that speak to individual goals future law students may have. You can shout Retake and T14 or Bust all you want, but it doesn't do anything than perpetuate an echo chamber of ignorance. I am aware there is a penalty for going against the grain, and I guess that's my cross to bear.

Except none of that is true.

It's not true, how do you explain this thread then. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245041
Retake Retake Retake, it's like a broken record.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:21 pm

Also I have seen many, many threads where people have said to choose one school over another because of US News rankings. If you will really require me to get proof, give me a moment and I will provide several RECENT links to this.

User avatar
middlebear
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 4:48 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby middlebear » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:22 pm

brianiac wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
brianiac wrote:I don't deserve the hate in this thread. All I'm trying to do is introduce the board to different ways of looking at this problem. It is easy and thoughtless for you people to point to some arbitrary magazine's T14 ranking and say, look here, this is the best school. It is something entirely different to carefully investigate different varied studies that speak to individual goals future law students may have. You can shout Retake and T14 or Bust all you want, but it doesn't do anything than perpetuate an echo chamber of ignorance. I am aware there is a penalty for going against the grain, and I guess that's my cross to bear.

Except none of that is true.

It's not true, how do you explain this thread then. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=245041
Retake Retake Retake, it's like a broken record.


No one was shouting T14 or Bust, they were shouting retake so that poster could go to a regional for cheap, be able to get a job on graduation, and not ruin his family's finances.

brianiac wrote:Also I have seen many, many threads where people have said to choose one school over another because of US News rankings. If you will really require me to get proof, give me a moment and I will provide several RECENT links to this.


Please do.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:24 pm

middlebear wrote:
brianiac wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
brianiac wrote:I don't deserve the hate in this thread. All I'm trying to do is introduce the board to different ways of looking at this problem. It is easy and thoughtless for you people to point to some arbitrary magazine's T14 ranking and say, look here, this is the best school. It is something entirely different to carefully investigate different varied studies that speak to individual goals future law students may have. You can shout Retake and T14 or Bust all you want, but it doesn't do anything than perpetuate an echo chamber of ignorance. I am aware there is a penalty for going against the grain, and I guess that's my cross to bear.

Except none of that is true.

It's not true, how do you explain this thread then. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245041
Retake Retake Retake, it's like a broken record.


No one was shouting T14 or Bust, they were shouting retake so that poster could go to a regional for cheap, be able to get a job on graduation, and not ruin his family's finances.

brianiac wrote:Also I have seen many, many threads where people have said to choose one school over another because of US News rankings. If you will really require me to get proof, give me a moment and I will provide several RECENT links to this.


Please do.

Emory- 19th
Florida- Tied for 47th

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to Emory. You can always make that 75k difference back. Go with the quality, bro!


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245524&p=8486965

Mizzou- Tied for 59th
Saint Louis- Tied for 87th

If I were in your spot, I'd pick Mizzou!


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245477&p=8484015

Here is proof and these are recent posts too. You clearly are clueless because you have been indoctrinated by the board and no longer see its flaws.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:25 pm

brianiac wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
brianiac wrote:I am aware there is a penalty for going against the grain, and I guess that's my cross to bear.

Please tread lightly. Any and all references to martydom will be reported.

First of all I find that offensive. Second, stop trying to screw up people's threads. I've noticed that's something you do a lot on this forum and it will not be tolerated here.

Dude, you introduced the cross-bearing metaphor. My response was on-topic.

User avatar
hairbear7
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:28 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby hairbear7 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:26 pm

What reputable posters always ask:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT


Not:

what are the ranks of the schools you're looking at?

User avatar
hairbear7
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:28 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby hairbear7 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:27 pm

LOL wait he quoted DaRascal

Mnav20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:16 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby Mnav20 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:27 pm

AT9 wrote:I'd disagree with some posters who say these are bad schools, but I'd agree that they don't make a lot of sense at these costs. Picking up a large family and moving to a different state for a pretty small chance of obtaining a high-paying job in a place where you apparently don't have ties and a 100% chance of taking on a ton of debt is probably not a smart move.

Sorry if I missed this, but do you have a spouse who may have a job any of these places? Or in Tampa now? If, for instance, you have a spouse who can cover cost of living, staying in Tampa and going to Stetson with $$$ may not be a terrible idea. UF and FSU with $$$ may not be a bad idea either.

Law school with a working spouse, no kids, and $$$ at a tier 1 school like these was scary enough for me. I can't imagine doing it with a large family and tons of debt staring me down.


This **really** sounds like T14 or bust. Did you purposely choose that thread because posters wanted the OP to retake for UF/FSU aka state flagships?

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby Big Dog » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:28 pm

I already addressed the class size thing by including the new study.


very slick sleight of hand. you will be a wonderful lawyer.

Hint: if you adjust Seto for class size first, your highly acclaimed (T6) GWU falls to T16. Then merge the two and GWU is still not in your T10. But feel free to pay top dollar for a "T16"....

fwiw: fortunately, few law students have even taken AP Stats and most are math-challenged; otherwise, Seto's 1L's could have easily pointed out the statistical flaws in his 'study'.
Last edited by Big Dog on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:29 pm

hairbear7 wrote:LOL wait he quoted DaRascal

Oh dear...we're in a recursive troll loop. If my calculations are correct, we have approximately 2.5 hours until the entire forum is locked.

User avatar
middlebear
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 4:48 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby middlebear » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:29 pm

brianiac wrote:
brianiac wrote:Also I have seen many, many threads where people have said to choose one school over another because of US News rankings. If you will really require me to get proof, give me a moment and I will provide several RECENT links to this.


middlebear wrote:Please do.

Emory- 19th
Florida- Tied for 47th

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to Emory. You can always make that 75k difference back. Go with the quality, bro!


http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... &p=8486965

Mizzou- Tied for 59th
Saint Louis- Tied for 87th

If I were in your spot, I'd pick Mizzou!


http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... &p=8484015

Here is proof and these are recent posts too. You clearly are clueless because you have been indoctrinated by the board and no longer see its flaws.


Oh my God. Excuse me for a moment while I stop laughing. Did you even see who posted the responses you quoted there (neither of which, by the way, were the consensus advice in those threads)? They're both from DaRascal, aka one of the biggest idiots/trolls on TLS, and who is mocked and refuted as such. You're making my (and everyone else here's) point for me.

User avatar
downbeat14
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:00 am

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:33 pm

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Julien_Benda
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby Julien_Benda » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:37 pm

brianiac wrote:I don't like that study as much, it doesn't seem as accurate and the authors aren't as well credentialed as Seto (one is completely unknown, the other went to Chicago and did not get magna cum laude). Still, for the sake of addressing your point, I will combine the data from the two studies.


He's not alone, brianiac. Chicago doesn't do Latin honors. So TTT, I know.

Maybe they could take a page from the gospel of G/G. Up that DC placement power at least to the level of Catholic and American.

Amiright?

User avatar
Capitol_Idea
Posts: 10737
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:54 am

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:52 pm

I don't want to believe it, but I think it's time to call troll.

The shtick has been completely unbroken and the form is never quite over the top, but quoting DaRascal multiple times is just TOO perfect. Whoever's alt this is: you are a goddamn lunatic genius troll. You're the antibiotic-resistant staph infection of the internet. The Forum Alpha Predator. I am humbled at this.

Because the alternative would be this guy is a supreme combination of persistence, ignorance, contrarianism, and just enough reasoning capacity to be dangerous but not, y'know, right.

Either way, please stay in TLS forever.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:53 pm

I watched with amusement as TLS held its collective breath on the eve of the new US News Rankings. Polls were made, contests were held, every subtle shift was analyzed, debated, poked and prodded. It was truly a spectacle to behold. But I soon wondered – isn't this exactly why the same schools appear again and again at the very top of the rankings.

What am I talking about – let me give you an simple illustration. Imagine Mr. X reads the rankings, which change his perception of the various law schools. The very high ranking for school Y makes him believe Y is the best school in the country. This perception endures as he enters law school, and endures after he graduates. Then, in practice, he is asked to participate in the US News poll as part of the reputational score. Because of that earlier exposure to the rankings, he still believes Y is the best school and votes accordingly. This is factored into the reputational score, and thus, US News puts Y at the top again. As I learned about in economics, this is called a positive feedback loop.

You may wonder – how can I break this positive feedback loop. Simple – stop focusing on the reputational score and library book count, and start looking at important things like selectivity, employment, and salaries. Sure, you could break out Excel and calculate this all for yourself. But instead, a study has done this for you, which I submit to the board for its consideration today.

http://tippingthescales.com/2013/10/our ... schools/3/

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Harvard
4. UPenn
5. Columbia
6. Duke
7. Northwestern
8. Berkeley
9. Virginia
10, Michigan
11. Chicago
12. New York
13. GW
14. Cornell

You will immediately notice that many different factors are in play, all of them relevant. No library books. No expenses per student. No reputational score. This is purely objective metrics like jobs at graduation, and median private salary. You will also notice that certain schools, like Yale and Georgetown, which get inflated rankings because of "prestige", have dropped once you start looking at purely objective measurements. Certain other schools have risen, in some cases considerably so. I submit that if TLS is going to focus on a T14, it ought to be a T14 of employment and salary, not a T14 of library size and faculty-student ratio.

User avatar
RZ5646
Posts: 2391
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby RZ5646 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:55 pm

Saw this thread on the TLS front page and knew the author before I even clicked on it.

User avatar
rickgrimes69
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:56 am

Re: School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:57 pm

No offense dude, but duh. Everyone knows this about USNWR rankings. That's why nobody here takes them seriously. Like, at all.

I know you're a troll and all, but you're nuking the fridge here.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:No offense dude, but duh. Everyone knows this about USNWR rankings. That's why nobody here takes them seriously. Like, at all.

I know you're a troll and all, but you're nuking the fridge here.

I can link to many threads in which the rankings were taken quite seriously and in fact heavily analyzed. If you require me to provide proof I will do so with multiple links.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22885
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:59 pm

"Analyzed" and "taken seriously" don't mean the same thing. The whole point of the contest is that no one should take USNWR seriously.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: School Reputation and the Positive Feedback Loop (is S > Y?)

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:No offense dude, but duh. Everyone knows this about USNWR rankings. That's why nobody here takes them seriously. Like, at all.

I know you're a troll and all, but you're nuking the fridge here.

Also, stating an opinion that does not fit into the rankings-obsessed orthodoxy is not "trolling", but trying to ruin a thread by calling people trolls is. I've made a substantial point in the original post and would like to discuss it. NOT get into an internet flame war.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22885
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:02 pm

You already have a thread for this kind of discussion. I've merged the two.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:02 pm

What happened to my thread on school reputation? Why did it get reposted here in a thread about the biglaw partner studies?

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22885
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:04 pm

It's the same discussion - methodologies for evaluating schools and mowing down straw men.

brianiac
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: What schools are best for biglaw? A methodical approach

Postby brianiac » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:08 pm

I don't understand, how is a discussion about biglaw partnerships the same discussion as whether reputational scores cause a positive feedback loop, other than that they both relate to evaluating schools.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hwwong and 3 guests