How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

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chuckbass
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby chuckbass » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:37 pm

So put it all on black and go to Fordham I guess, I don't know what else you'd like us to tell you

BigZuck
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:42 pm

Did Lax fall into a time warp? Was his memory wiped?

Here is what he said today, March 24th:
lacrossebrother wrote:If I made a website called public company transparency and literally just republished sec filings but color coded the tables, I think it would serve to suggest that the companies are not being transparent and I'm publishing something that I uncovered.


But here he is March 16th (in a gem of a thread btw Lax, I enjoyed it):
lacrossebrother wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lax, you realize that schools didn't used to publish any of this data and LST pushed for modifications of the 509 to make the information clearer and more accessible, right? None of this was available when I applied in 2007-2008. It's called law school transparency because everything did used to be opaque. No school published this info. I don't think the ABA even made it available online. Do you think prospective 0Ls were going to contact the ABA directly to ask for this info? Not when schools had very different statistics online.

Oh I did not know that. In that case that is pretty awesome. I don't remember it being a problem and if I remember right LST also had less data then too. It's never seemed to be like they're a flashlight of any type. If they really are the catalyst for the change though good for them

:?:

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confused_humpback
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:48 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:So put it all on black and go to Fordham I guess, I don't know what else you'd like us to tell you


Hm.

I could take a 30k scholarship at Fordham for my first year, transfer to Columbia for my 2L, then finish as a visiting student at Brooklyn Law getting a full ride in my third year.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:31 am

A few comments:
* We organize the publicly available information for easy consumption
* We help people figure out what's important from what's public
* We take public data and make it useful in other ways, e.g. comparing trends over time or making debt projections using historical data (and in some cases, future data, e.g. Brooklyn law's new tuition price)
* We provide significantly more data that matters than the ABA. Schools receive NALP Reports, with a wealth of job outcome data, and we're the only place that organizes that information. The timelines are weird, which probably contributes to a lack of knowledge. And not all schools share more than the ABA data, which definitely contributes to the lack of knowledge. People probably also assume stuff is from the ABA, when it's stuff we got from elsewhere.

Note:
* The status quo has changed an amazing amount, and we are the catalyst behind the change. This issue was not on anybody's radar before we got into the mix. People complained that there were no jobs, but in a very different way. We shed light on deceptiveness, made the ABA change it standards, and have forced voluntary disclosure norms to increase too. (It used to be that 0% of law schools published NALP Reports, now 60%. That was our doing.)
* We named LST "Law School Transparency" because at the time schools were actively hiding information, and the ABA was rubber stamping the practice. (The ABA knew, and actually actively hid data it had about law schools too.)
* We are also actively involved in improving what's out there now, from enforcement of the ABA standards to the creation of new standards to modification of current standards.

There are still transparency problems that we work on, and there are behavioral issues that we work on (from law schools to prospective law students). Take a look around http://www.lawschooltransparency.com for a bigger idea of what we do beyond just providing public education about law schools.

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starry eyed
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby starry eyed » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:54 am

BigZuck wrote:Did Lax fall into a time warp? Was his memory wiped?


But here he is March 16th (in a gem of a thread btw Lax, I enjoyed it):
lacrossebrother wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lax, you realize that schools didn't used to publish any of this data and LST pushed for modifications of the 509 to make the information clearer and more accessible, right? None of this was available when I applied in 2007-2008. It's called law school transparency because everything did used to be opaque. No school published this info. I don't think the ABA even made it available online. Do you think prospective 0Ls were going to contact the ABA directly to ask for this info? Not when schools had very different statistics online.

Oh I did not know that. In that case that is pretty awesome. I don't remember it being a problem and if I remember right LST also had less data then too. It's never seemed to be like they're a flashlight of any type. If they really are the catalyst for the change though good for them

:?:


Oh shit lol.

I didn't know LST had a role in getting law schools to be more transparent either.. I assumed they capitalized on the release of the ABA reports.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:04 am

starry eyed wrote:Oh shit lol.

I didn't know LST had a role in getting law schools to be more transparent either.. I assumed they capitalized on the release of the ABA reports.


Look back at some of the stories near the bottom of this page: http://lawschooltransparency.com/in_the_press/ There's a reason this is called the transparency era.

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starry eyed
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby starry eyed » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:07 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Oh shit lol.

I didn't know LST had a role in getting law schools to be more transparent either.. I assumed they capitalized on the release of the ABA reports.


Look back at some of the stories near the bottom of this page: http://lawschooltransparency.com/in_the_press/ There's a reason this is called the transparency era.


I just checked it out.. My hat goes off to you.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:12 am

This is interesting timing for this thread. We're in evaluation mode right now, thinking a lot about how to project our vision for fundraising purposes. It seems we need to do more to tell our story too. The 0Ls today are the donors of the future. Will they donate in 10 years just because they used our site? Or will it require them knowing that we're the ones behind such positive change? The consequences are far-reaching -- the employment data work is very definition of strategic initiative. But we need to raise money to continue to exist so these are the things we worry/think about.

Just as a side note, we'll never charge for our website. This makes sense if you know our history. I think people would pay a fairly substantial amount. We could generate fairly substantial ad revenue. But again, with our history and mission, that does not make sense. Yet I think if we started charging, a lot of 0Ls wouldn't think twice, whereas those who know the role we've played would raise hell because they're always lying in wait to raise hell. That happens when you disrupt an economic model.

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starry eyed
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby starry eyed » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:16 am

jenesaislaw wrote:This is interesting timing for this thread. We're in evaluation mode right now, thinking a lot about how to project our vision for fundraising purposes. It seems we need to do more to tell our story too. The 0Ls today are the donors of the future. Will they donate in 10 years just because they used our site? Or will it require them knowing that we're the ones behind such positive change? The consequences are far-reaching, it is the very definition of strategic initiative, but we need to raise money to continue to exist so these are the things we worry/think about.

Just as a side note, we'll never charge for our website. This makes sense if you know our history. I think people would pay a fairly substantial amount. We could generate fairly substantial ad revenue. But again, with our history and mission, that does not make sense. Yet I think if we started charging, a lot of 0Ls wouldn't think twice, whereas those who know the role we've played would raise hell because they're always lying in wait to raise hell. That happens when you disrupt an economic model.


yea definitely don't charge.... in that case i would go digging through the NALP reports and ABA reports and compile my own data. who charges for a website anyways? I would focus on the convenience/getting your message out there. Your ad revenue would decrease if you charged as well due to fewer overall visitors and fewer potential ad clickers.

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lacrossebrother
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:41 pm

You need a new name man. And you should position yourself as an alternative to the AALS/ABA. And then you get alumni to pressure schools to send you data.

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Winston1984
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:48 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:You need a new name man. And you should position yourself as an alternative to the AALS/ABA. And then you get alumni to pressure schools to send you data.

Why would he change the name now? It has recognition. Also, your schtick is weird.

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lacrossebrother
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:12 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:You need a new name man. And you should position yourself as an alternative to the AALS/ABA. And then you get alumni to pressure schools to send you data.

Why would he change the name now? It has recognition. Also, your schtick is weird.

Bc if ABA stood for american bar association are assholes it wouldn't be taken as seriously.

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Winston1984
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:00 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:You need a new name man. And you should position yourself as an alternative to the AALS/ABA. And then you get alumni to pressure schools to send you data.

Why would he change the name now? It has recognition. Also, your schtick is weird.

Bc if ABA stood for american bar association are assholes it wouldn't be taken as seriously.

C'mon bro.. You can do better than that.

NycReturn
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby NycReturn » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:55 pm

confused_humpback wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Honestly, what's really missed by the ABA reports for a school like Fordham is the number of students that transfer out. Transfer data has a negligible impact on a T6, where maybe 3-5 kids will transfer within that set each year. By contrast, it has a substantial impact on Fordham, where a non-negligible number of students in the top 10% will transfer, mainly to Cornell, NYU or CLS. Not sure what that says about the school or the opportunities it creates for its students.

I think it suggests that a lower-ranked school's grad-based employment numbers might be slightly misleading for 0Ls. If a significant percentage of the top 10% - 15% of a 1L class transfers, and if the transfer group has a largely positive employment outcome, then that should count in the 1L school's favor--at least it should if you're a 0L making decisions about where to go to law school. But the 1L school, of course, doesn't get to count the departed transfers among its final employment numbers.

On the other hand, many schools like Fordham also take in a ton of transfers. To the extent those transfers do well and end up in long-term legal employment, it offsets some of the brain drain effect you flagged. But, overall, I think the "transfer out" effect does make certain schools seem like slightly worse deals than they actually are. It's a pretty minor thing, though.


It might also be having the opposite effect for some schools, assuming that transfer students continue to do well. Fordham took in double the amount of students that transferred out of the program.


Fordham actually had 20 people transfer out according to the latest 509 reports and only 11 transfer in, so this is kinda backwards. Also, transfers in can't participate in OCI so I'm assuming their biglaw outcomes aren't too good either. But those 20 transfers would probably equate to ~4-5% bump in biglaw employment. Combined with the LST reports from the class of 2013 (still a struggling year), and Fordham 1L's are at ~40% biglaw + Fed Clerk placement. Not great and definitely not worth financing at sticker debt or anywhere close to it, but not as terrible as some people can make it out to be.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: How Reliable Are ABA Reports?

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:02 am

NycReturn wrote:
confused_humpback wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Honestly, what's really missed by the ABA reports for a school like Fordham is the number of students that transfer out. Transfer data has a negligible impact on a T6, where maybe 3-5 kids will transfer within that set each year. By contrast, it has a substantial impact on Fordham, where a non-negligible number of students in the top 10% will transfer, mainly to Cornell, NYU or CLS. Not sure what that says about the school or the opportunities it creates for its students.

I think it suggests that a lower-ranked school's grad-based employment numbers might be slightly misleading for 0Ls. If a significant percentage of the top 10% - 15% of a 1L class transfers, and if the transfer group has a largely positive employment outcome, then that should count in the 1L school's favor--at least it should if you're a 0L making decisions about where to go to law school. But the 1L school, of course, doesn't get to count the departed transfers among its final employment numbers.

On the other hand, many schools like Fordham also take in a ton of transfers. To the extent those transfers do well and end up in long-term legal employment, it offsets some of the brain drain effect you flagged. But, overall, I think the "transfer out" effect does make certain schools seem like slightly worse deals than they actually are. It's a pretty minor thing, though.


It might also be having the opposite effect for some schools, assuming that transfer students continue to do well. Fordham took in double the amount of students that transferred out of the program.


Fordham actually had 20 people transfer out according to the latest 509 reports and only 11 transfer in, so this is kinda backwards. Also, transfers in can't participate in OCI so I'm assuming their biglaw outcomes aren't too good either. But those 20 transfers would probably equate to ~4-5% bump in biglaw employment. Combined with the LST reports from the class of 2013 (still a struggling year), and Fordham 1L's are at ~40% biglaw + Fed Clerk placement. Not great and definitely not worth financing at sticker debt or anywhere close to it, but not as terrible as some people can make it out to be.


One big positive with Fordham is that they have reduced their incoming class size 23%. It won't provide straightline help to the biglaw+fed clerk number, because rank is relative to whole class regardless of class size, but it should help reduce the number of bad outcomes.




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