W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

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marley18
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W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby marley18 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:44 pm

I'm wondering what your thoughts would be if you were in my shoes deciding between William and Mary ($9k), Minnesota ($25k), and Boston College ($18k). I'm a little unfamiliar with reputations aside from ranking websites, so I wanted to hear some of your opinions. I am a native New Yorker, so I'm hesitant about Minnesota and W&M, even though they both seem like strong options. Looking to work in a major city like DC, Boston, San Francisco, or Chicago. Not set on a specialty yet, though International Law and Immigration Law both interest me. Also got a full ride to Brooklyn Law, but really trying to get out of NYC. Appreciate all your thoughts!! :D

BigZuck
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:11 pm

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide all of the following:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

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DaRascal
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby DaRascal » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:28 pm

I think out of the 3 choices, TLS will tell you BC because of its relative strength in its market (a large city), but I don't buy it. If I'm in your shoes, I'm going to the T20 who gave me the most money. W&M and BC wouldn't know what it's like to be a top 20 school! :P

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rpupkin
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:56 pm

DaRascal wrote:I think out of the 3 choices, TLS will tell you BC because of its relative strength in its market (a large city), but I don't buy it. If I'm in your shoes, I'm going to the T20 who gave me the most money. W&M and BC wouldn't know what it's like to be a top 20 school! :P

I think I liked the restraining order/compulsive gambling schticks better than this USNWR-fanboy thing.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby The Dark Shepard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:04 am

First, international law does not really exist (unless you go to HYS and maybe CCN).

Second, your goals aren't very refined. Are you looking PI? Firm (and if so, what size firm)?

I probably wouldn't take any of those at that price (disclaimer: UMN 1L).

Informative
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby Informative » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:13 am

BC is the only one of these three options that places well in BigLaw. If that is what you are looking to do, go wtih Boston College. It is also the only one of these three options that places well in the northeast.

If you want to practice in Minnesota or Virginia, then go to the school in the market you want to work in.

I would be weary about Minnesota after reading this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165679&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

BigZuck
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:37 am

Informative wrote:BC is the only one of these three options that places well in BigLaw. If that is what you are looking to do, go wtih Boston College. It is also the only one of these three options that places well in the northeast.

If you want to practice in Minnesota or Virginia, then go to the school in the market you want to work in.

I would be weary about Minnesota after reading this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165679&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

BC doesn't place well in big law though. The only schools that really give you a better than 50/50 shot at that are in the T14.

Informative
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby Informative » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:21 am

Comparatively, BC places better than W&M and Minnesota. If you are considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in BigLaw, then only six schools qualify as placing "well" in biglaw according to your standard. You may want to reconsider your definition of "well".

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:27 am

I will regret for the rest of my life choosing BC over W&M, both of which offered ample scholarship money. Believe me on this. Going to BC was the worst decision of my life.

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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:14 am

Informative wrote:Comparatively, BC places better than W&M and Minnesota. If you are considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in BigLaw, then only six schools qualify as placing "well" in biglaw according to your standard. You may want to reconsider your definition of "well".

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571


I'm not considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in big law

Your low IQ schtick is getting old

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chuckbass
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby chuckbass » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:46 am

BlueLotus wrote:I will regret for the rest of my life choosing BC over W&M, both of which offered ample scholarship money. Believe me on this. Going to BC was the worst decision of my life.

Lol uh, you're just gonna leave this here with no explanation?

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:30 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I will regret for the rest of my life choosing BC over W&M, both of which offered ample scholarship money. Believe me on this. Going to BC was the worst decision of my life.

Lol uh, you're just gonna leave this here with no explanation?


BC is a TTTrap. I would have been much happier at W&M.

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chuckbass
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby chuckbass » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:32 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I will regret for the rest of my life choosing BC over W&M, both of which offered ample scholarship money. Believe me on this. Going to BC was the worst decision of my life.

Lol uh, you're just gonna leave this here with no explanation?


BC is a TTTrap. I would have been much happier at W&M.

And W&M wouldn't lead to equally bad outcomes on average?

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:38 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I will regret for the rest of my life choosing BC over W&M, both of which offered ample scholarship money. Believe me on this. Going to BC was the worst decision of my life.

Lol uh, you're just gonna leave this here with no explanation?


BC is a TTTrap. I would have been much happier at W&M.

And W&M wouldn't lead to equally bad outcomes on average?


W&M provides post-graduate public interest fellowships for their grads, which are key to getting your foot in the door if you want that path (as I do).

I am absolutely miserable at BC. I like the practice of law (thru my internships, etc.) but I hate, hate HATE the school and its incompetent administration, the terrible food, poor quality of life, shitty weather, etc.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby The Dark Shepard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:02 pm

BlueLotus wrote:I am absolutely miserable at BC. I like the practice of law (thru my internships, etc.) but I hate, hate HATE the school and its incompetent administration, the terrible food, poor quality of life, shitty weather, etc.


The stuff you are talking about won't necessarily be better from one law school to another, except perhaps weather.

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:05 pm

The Dark Shepard wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I am absolutely miserable at BC. I like the practice of law (thru my internships, etc.) but I hate, hate HATE the school and its incompetent administration, the terrible food, poor quality of life, shitty weather, etc.


The stuff you are talking about won't necessarily be better from one law school to another, except perhaps weather.


The availability of school-sponsored postgrad fellowships is a lifesaver if you're going into public interest, particularly legal aid. Had I gone to W&M, I might have not ended up in the grim predicament that I am in

The Dark Shepard
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby The Dark Shepard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:30 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
The Dark Shepard wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I am absolutely miserable at BC. I like the practice of law (thru my internships, etc.) but I hate, hate HATE the school and its incompetent administration, the terrible food, poor quality of life, shitty weather, etc.


The stuff you are talking about won't necessarily be better from one law school to another, except perhaps weather.


The availability of school-sponsored postgrad fellowships is a lifesaver if you're going into public interest, particularly legal aid. Had I gone to W&M, I might have not ended up in the grim predicament that I am in


Isn't the pay literally $15,000/year? I havn't heard good things about the program (I seriously considered W&M too)

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:47 pm

The Dark Shepard wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
The Dark Shepard wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:I am absolutely miserable at BC. I like the practice of law (thru my internships, etc.) but I hate, hate HATE the school and its incompetent administration, the terrible food, poor quality of life, shitty weather, etc.


The stuff you are talking about won't necessarily be better from one law school to another, except perhaps weather.


The availability of school-sponsored postgrad fellowships is a lifesaver if you're going into public interest, particularly legal aid. Had I gone to W&M, I might have not ended up in the grim predicament that I am in


Isn't the pay literally $15,000/year? I havn't heard good things about the program (I seriously considered W&M too)


No, I think you're referring to GULC's program.

Whatever you do, OP, stay far, far away from BC. Worst life decision I've ever made.

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Poptorts
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby Poptorts » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:01 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Informative wrote:Comparatively, BC places better than W&M and Minnesota. If you are considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in BigLaw, then only six schools qualify as placing "well" in biglaw according to your standard. You may want to reconsider your definition of "well".

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571


I'm not considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in big law

Your low IQ schtick is getting old


Define "well."

You said that BC does not place well, then went on to say that only schools in the T14 give a better than 50/50 shot. I believe it led Informative, as well as others, into thinking that your "well" means more than 50%.

To be fair, reading comp was my worst section, but that definitely seems to suggest that "well" means more than a 50/50 shot of biglaw in which Informative is correct in suggesting only 6 schools have biglaw employment rates above 50%.

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MarkfromWI
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby MarkfromWI » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:20 pm

OP- I've posted quite a bit on here recently about this (search my post history if you care for more detail; at this point I'm giving bullet points) but basically don't go to MN unless you fully accept the likelihood that you won't be able to leave for the foreseeable future following graduation. The Twin Cities is the only major metro for several hundred miles in any direction (you're a full 7 hour drive from Chicago, not that a MN degree can get you there anyway) and the Biglaw market there is very small. If you're outside of the top 15% or so of students and thus miss the biglaw boat, you're competing for a job with the rest of your class and graduates from 3 other local law schools.

It's a very good school academically, and I loved living in the Twin Cities, but its rank far outpaces its job placement ability. In that sense it's a definite trap school for someone who doesn't want to be in MN forever.

Personally, all your options are a bit too expensive for my tastes, but if I had to choose I'd probably go BC.

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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:12 pm

Poptorts wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Informative wrote:Comparatively, BC places better than W&M and Minnesota. If you are considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in BigLaw, then only six schools qualify as placing "well" in biglaw according to your standard. You may want to reconsider your definition of "well".

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571


I'm not considering only schools that place at least 50% of its graduates in big law

Your low IQ schtick is getting old


Define "well."

You said that BC does not place well, then went on to say that only schools in the T14 give a better than 50/50 shot. I believe it led Informative, as well as others, into thinking that your "well" means more than 50%.

To be fair, reading comp was my worst section, but that definitely seems to suggest that "well" means more than a 50/50 shot of biglaw in which Informative is correct in suggesting only 6 schools have biglaw employment rates above 50%.

I would define "well" as at least a 50/50 shot at big law. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I wasn't talking about schools that only place 50%+ in big law.

I was talking about schools that give you at least a 50% shot at big law.

Eta: And where is the 6 schools thing coming from anyway? Is that unable to count schtick?

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Poptorts
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby Poptorts » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:53 am

BigZuck wrote:I would define "well" as at least a 50/50 shot at big law. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I wasn't talking about schools that only place 50%+ in big law.

I was talking about schools that give you at least a 50% shot at big law.

Eta: And where is the 6 schools thing coming from anyway? Is that unable to count schtick?


I agree, I wouldn't call that unreasonable.

Where would you find a list that gives you your chance at big law from a particular school? I've actually be trying to find something that gives you a percentage of students at a school who actually want big law, and then the percentage of that group that get big law. Is that what you are talking about in terms of the 50/50 shot? Half of those who want big law get it?

I think the 6 schools thing came from that link he posted about schools that place over 50% of grads into big law.

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BlueLotus
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:08 pm

MarkfromWI wrote:OP- I've posted quite a bit on here recently about this (search my post history if you care for more detail; at this point I'm giving bullet points) but basically don't go to MN unless you fully accept the likelihood that you won't be able to leave for the foreseeable future following graduation. The Twin Cities is the only major metro for several hundred miles in any direction (you're a full 7 hour drive from Chicago, not that a MN degree can get you there anyway) and the Biglaw market there is very small. If you're outside of the top 15% or so of students and thus miss the biglaw boat, you're competing for a job with the rest of your class and graduates from 3 other local law schools.

It's a very good school academically, and I loved living in the Twin Cities, but its rank far outpaces its job placement ability. In that sense it's a definite trap school for someone who doesn't want to be in MN forever.

Personally, all your options are a bit too expensive for my tastes, but if I had to choose I'd probably go BC.


Don't choose BC. Anything but BC. Try to squeeze more scholarship money out of W&M, a much better school.

BigZuck
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:28 pm

Poptorts wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I would define "well" as at least a 50/50 shot at big law. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I wasn't talking about schools that only place 50%+ in big law.

I was talking about schools that give you at least a 50% shot at big law.

Eta: And where is the 6 schools thing coming from anyway? Is that unable to count schtick?


I agree, I wouldn't call that unreasonable.

Where would you find a list that gives you your chance at big law from a particular school? I've actually be trying to find something that gives you a percentage of students at a school who actually want big law, and then the percentage of that group that get big law. Is that what you are talking about in terms of the 50/50 shot? Half of those who want big law get it?

I think the 6 schools thing came from that link he posted about schools that place over 50% of grads into big law.


At least in the LST era, big law is typically defined as firms of 100+. That would be like 9 schools that place more than 50% into big law. And generally people who do clerkships could have got big law if they tried. And then there is usually some degree of self-selection out of big law. I wouldn't look at Yale's relatively low big law score and say "Nope, garbage. Gimme UVA over it!"

There's no list like that, schools jealously guard that kind of info. Percentage of kids who want big law and get it would be good to know. Of course you'll never really know your own individual chances down to an exact percentage. Grades are a big factor, and those are pretty much impossible to predict going in. Maybe someone has diversity factors that firms want. Or they are smoking hot. Or daddy is a name partner. Their individual chance might be close to or at 100%. Maybe someone else is a super brilliant legal mind but they are amazingly socially awkward. Their chances might hover around 0%.

I feel comfortable saying every T14 gives you at least a 50/50 chance, and most probably give you a much greater chance than that. They all place well. Schools like UT, Vandy, UCLA, etc. are all probably closer to 50/50 or 60/40 against you. After that chances start to fall pretty precipitously IMO.

BC is decent, but I wouldn't say it places well.

Informative says a lot of stuff that kinda sorta almost sounds right. But it's almost always wrong. Gotta be a schtick/troll account.

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Iwanttolawschool
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Re: W&M vs. Minnesota vs. BC?

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:34 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
MarkfromWI wrote:OP- I've posted quite a bit on here recently about this (search my post history if you care for more detail; at this point I'm giving bullet points) but basically don't go to MN unless you fully accept the likelihood that you won't be able to leave for the foreseeable future following graduation. The Twin Cities is the only major metro for several hundred miles in any direction (you're a full 7 hour drive from Chicago, not that a MN degree can get you there anyway) and the Biglaw market there is very small. If you're outside of the top 15% or so of students and thus miss the biglaw boat, you're competing for a job with the rest of your class and graduates from 3 other local law schools.

It's a very good school academically, and I loved living in the Twin Cities, but its rank far outpaces its job placement ability. In that sense it's a definite trap school for someone who doesn't want to be in MN forever.

Personally, all your options are a bit too expensive for my tastes, but if I had to choose I'd probably go BC.


Don't choose BC. Anything but BC. Try to squeeze more scholarship money out of W&M, a much better school.


I wish you were at their Admitted Students Day last Saturday. The handpicked students they had claimed, and I quote.."BC is the greatest Law School in North America". The guy actually said he'd pick it over Harvard, Yale, ect




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