Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which law school should I attend?

Notre Dame
12
57%
University of Miami
1
5%
Other (please explain)
0
No votes
Obligatory Retake Option
8
38%
 
Total votes: 21

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:43 pm

twenty wrote:1) Do some serious soul searching as to whether you want to be a DA, or you just don't want to retake. A lot, and I mean a lot of people come into law school convinced they want to be DAs only to realize they really don't want to do it as much as they thought they did.


Oh, my desire not to retake has nothing to do with my career goals. I really do want to be a DA; I've had some experience volunteering with the local county court. I'll admit there's a small chance I might sway toward children's advocacy, but I legitimately have zero interest in anything outside of serving the public good. I want nothing to do with BigLaw or corporate anything.

2) Miami and Notre Dame at those costs are objectively good choices. You could choose either one. Perhaps one is a better option than another, but who knows. I wouldn't write off Emory quite so fast, but I wouldn't attend if COA is more than 80k.


I appreciate that input. I wasn't terribly interested in Atlanta after visiting, but perhaps I should do some more considering, there.

3) With a retake, you could find yourself with a full ride at a school that gives you access to a market you actually want to be in. You don't know what market you want to be in, and there is a massive difference between being an ADA in buttfuckalo county, Indiana, and Miami. You will be very hard pressed to get into those other markets you mentioned from either school.


Would I? That's good to know. Does it matter that, if I was looking for PA/NY, I wouldn't be looking in big cities? Regardless, though, that's very important for me to keep in mind. Thank you for keeping that in check. I still do not worry too much about where I end up specifically so long as I'm in a climate I at least enjoy.

4) "limbo" probably means getting a job and volunteering in whatever PI field you're interested in that week. That experience will be pretty valuable come time to actually get into ADA work.


I would have to agree. I'm less opposed to the year off than to the year in an area I know I'm going to leave. If I decided to, say, go to ND but retake and wait a year to see if I could get a better scholarship offer, then at least I could move and volunteer in that general area, and not be in the same kind of "limbo"... Does that make sense?

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby shifty_eyed » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:46 pm

irishamerican wrote:
shifty_eyed wrote:More like 20. He graduated a year early.

I don't understand the rush.


You're right. But just like you don't understand the rush, I don't understand the ability to sit around twiddling thumbs contentedly. We're just different people, you and I.


I got $75k in scholarship money by twiddling my thumbs and getting 2 more LSAT points.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:51 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:I got $75k in scholarship money by twiddling my thumbs and getting 2 more LSAT points.


I do not presume to know your life, but I am going to assume that you didn't feel like you were twiddling your thumbs. I did not mean to suggest that taking a year off equated with twiddling thumbs for everyone; I only meant that that would be how it would feel to me.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:55 pm

I was 27 and making 45k living in Phoenix, Arizona when I decided to sit out a year and retake so let's calm down with the thumb-twiddling debates

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:23 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I was 27 and making 45k living in Phoenix, Arizona when I decided to sit out a year and retake so let's calm down with the thumb-twiddling debates

Yeah. I was 27 and making 30K when I decided to retake.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:33 pm

I don't understand why we're suddenly in some kind of battle about our positions when taking a year off. I get that taking a year (or two, or three...) is totally doable. I get that people do it all the time. I'm just saying that I don't want to make that sacrifice. Because it would be a sacrifice for me. I don't see how my personal hatred of hovering in limbo has anything to do with your experiences taking a year and retaking.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:36 pm

irishamerican wrote:I don't understand why we're suddenly in some kind of battle about our positions when taking a year off. I get that taking a year (or two, or three...) is totally doable. I get that people do it all the time. I'm just saying that I don't want to make that sacrifice. Because it would be a sacrifice for me. I don't see how my personal hatred of hovering in limbo has anything to do with your experiences taking a year and retaking.

We're saying you're a fucking idiot for not sitting out and retaking. I mean Jesus fucking Christ

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smile0751
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby smile0751 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:41 pm

BigZuck wrote:As for Notre Dame, the Catholic thing seems superficial to me and shouldn't have anything to do with choosing a law school. I also doubt ND's COMMITMENT TO SERVICE is a real thing, or at least, any more real than at basically any other law school. Just sounds like marketing material to me.


Person who grew up in South Bend here. I didn't go to ND undergrad, but I have worked with the university fairly extensively.

Two things:

1) south bend isn't THAT bad. In fact I'm always surprised at how much ND alumni really rave about their time and experience at the school. Frankly, I've never heard a single person regret the experience (note: most ppl I have spoken with did ND undergrad).

2) As a person turning down 150k to ND, one of the biggest reasons I am not attending is because of how seriously the school does take its catholic heritage and commitment to service. As a kid who went public school all my life and would describe myself as agnostic, I just didn't think I could be comfortable in an environment where classes start with prayers and there is a cross in every room. I don't think the school is inauthentic in its dedication to its stated missions.

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SweetTort
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby SweetTort » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:44 pm

Why not just barista or something for a year, retake, and spend the rest of your time goofing around? Like, if you include scholarship money and future earnings it'd probably pay better than most (or all) legal jobs.


ETA: Obligatory Rudy joke.

ub3r
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby ub3r » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:52 pm

How about we swap identities and official documents. You can have my current law school acceptances and get right down to business this fall, and I'll become you, take a year off, and go to Stanford or some other T14 for free.

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:56 pm

smile0751 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:As for Notre Dame, the Catholic thing seems superficial to me and shouldn't have anything to do with choosing a law school. I also doubt ND's COMMITMENT TO SERVICE is a real thing, or at least, any more real than at basically any other law school. Just sounds like marketing material to me.


Person who grew up in South Bend here. I didn't go to ND undergrad, but I have worked with the university fairly extensively.

Two things:

1) south bend isn't THAT bad. In fact I'm always surprised at how much ND alumni really rave about their time and experience at the school. Frankly, I've never heard a single person regret the experience (note: most ppl I have spoken with did ND undergrad).

2) As a person turning down 150k to ND, one of the biggest reasons I am not attending is because of how seriously the school does take its catholic heritage and commitment to service. As a kid who went public school all my life and would describe myself as agnostic, I just didn't think I could be comfortable in an environment where classes start with prayers and there is a cross in every room. I don't think the school is inauthentic in its dedication to its stated missions.


ND sent 15.2% of its most recent class into public service jobs. They were narrowly edged out by such public service giants as Oklahoma City University, the University of Dayton, and Cincinnati.

If Notre Dame is more public service oriented than most law schools that isn't borne out in the types of jobs its grads take.

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Clearly
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby Clearly » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:01 pm

If you know what you want from your life, you should know that the best way of getting it is to retake.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:38 pm

Guys, I get that my GPA is great and I get that I could do better on the LSAT. But if my GPA wasn't what it is, would you still be giving me this "retake retake retake" advice? I'd appreciate the focus on my goals and which option is better.

Tiago Splitter wrote:We're saying you're a fucking idiot for not sitting out and retaking. I mean Jesus fucking Christ


And I suppose you're entitled to that opinion. One would think that a future lawyer might have a better way of making an argument than a simple "you're an idiot," but hey.

Clearly wrote:If you know what you want from your life, you should know that the best way of getting it is to retake.


How's that? Because I know what I want to do, and I know that what's best for me is to get started on that now. Retaking and waiting doesn't line up with what's best for me. I don't see how getting into a T14 matters. Again, I can understand that getting a full ride to ND -- for instance -- is better than my current offer, but for going into prosecution, I sincerely doubt a few rankings really matter.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:41 pm

smile0751 wrote:Person who grew up in South Bend here. I didn't go to ND undergrad, but I have worked with the university fairly extensively.

Two things:

1) south bend isn't THAT bad. In fact I'm always surprised at how much ND alumni really rave about their time and experience at the school. Frankly, I've never heard a single person regret the experience (note: most ppl I have spoken with did ND undergrad).

2) As a person turning down 150k to ND, one of the biggest reasons I am not attending is because of how seriously the school does take its catholic heritage and commitment to service. As a kid who went public school all my life and would describe myself as agnostic, I just didn't think I could be comfortable in an environment where classes start with prayers and there is a cross in every room. I don't think the school is inauthentic in its dedication to its stated missions.


Glad to hear someone else got the same vibe! (I mean, I'm not glad it's pushing you away, obviously, but hopefully you know what I mean.) I've never heard a person who went to ND complain about a thing... And I've always heard a lot about the heritage and commitment to service.

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:21 am

I'd like to see people give OP more substantive responses than "don't waste the GPA." (Not saying this to start fisticuffs, I'm just not convinced that's TCR right now. I'm open to alternative viewpoints.)

Some examples:

Like, if you include scholarship money and future earnings it'd probably pay better than most (or all) legal jobs.


But his cost of attendance is already/close to the lowest it can possibly get. I highly doubt an ADA will make more money having gone to UVA over Notre Dame. I can't think of any DA offices that would pay someone more from having gone to a more prestigious school. Maybe your argument is "Well, he could get into Manhattan DA's office from NYU, which there's no way in hell that happens from ND" - and I'd agree with that, except that it doesn't seem like OP wants to work in an urban (high prestige) environment:

Does it matter that, if I was looking for PA/NY, I wouldn't be looking in big cities?


So it's kind of hard to make that leap.

Hypothetically, let's say OP sits out the cycle, gets a 180 score on the LSAT, and ends up getting Columbia with a full ride. That outcome is substantially better for someone interested in biglaw, and is probably even a significant win for someone interested in "anything but biglaw" law. But the outcome is not that different for someone who ends up in low prestige public interest. The only tangible difference I can see between Columbia and Notre Dame in that situation is the LRAP, post-graduate funding, and location. Those three things are nice, definitely, 1) but the LRAP is worthless if you're on a full scholarship, 2) post-graduate funding is actually a pretty legit reason to retake and reapply to a better school, but Notre Dame/Emory do a pretty good job funding public interest things as it is (not sure about Miami, guessing not), 3) location is probably the most important because OP doesn't have any idea where he/she wants to spend a law career.

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chuckbass
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby chuckbass » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:24 am

So then OP should go to Temple or something for free

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:28 am

Excluding school funding opportunities, can you think of any rational reasons to take UPenn with a full ride over Temple with a full ride?

eta: temple/penn state may have scholarship stips or whatever; and that would obviously factor in as a "well no-fucking-shit" kind of way.

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chuckbass
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby chuckbass » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:31 am

twenty wrote:Excluding school funding opportunities, can you think of any rational reasons to take UPenn with a full ride over Temple with a full ride?

My statement was based on the assumption that OP ultimately wouldn't retake.

ETA: the only rational reason would be that natives are biased in favor of Temple in Philly for example so I have heard that it's been harder than expected for some Penn students to get jobs in Philly, but still, Penn is obviously the superior option.

03152016
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby 03152016 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:41 am

irishamerican wrote:The financial half:

Notre Dame || $120,000 scholarship || good standing || $50,000 COA debt-financed
University of Miami || full-tuition scholarship || good standing || $30,000 COA debt-financed

If it matters, I also have a $135,000 scholarship to Emory with good standing stipulations and an $84,000 scholarship/fellowship combination to William & Mary with a B average stipulation for the fellowship, in addition to a few other full tuition scholarships from places like Penn State (UP), Temple, and Albany.

I have $20,000 in undergraduate debt already. I have some savings that I might end up using to finance law school, but let’s just assume I’m financing only through debt. I know LRAP exists, but I'm not sure I want to count on being able to receive it.

i don't believe you could end up with $50k coa with a $120k scholly from nd
eyeballing it, i estimate you will land just north of six figure debt, BEFORE factoring in your 20k of ug debt

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:42 am

Maybe this is just one of those two ships in the night things, but that's sort of not what I'm going for. UPenn is "obviously superior" in many, many respects, but is placing students into outlying Pennsylvania county DA's offices one of them?

edit> I don't know if they're quite that high brut - if tuition at ND ends up averaging at 54k/year (it's 51k right now), 42k total + two years of housing at 10k/year maybe you end up with 70k debt plus the 20k from undergrad?

03152016
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby 03152016 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:49 am

twenty wrote:Maybe this is just one of those two ships in the night things, but that's sort of not what I'm going for. UPenn is "obviously superior" in many, many respects, but is placing students into outlying Pennsylvania county DA's offices one of them?

edit> I don't know if they're quite that high brut - if tuition at ND ends up averaging at 54k/year (it's 51k right now), 42k total + two years of housing at 10k/year maybe you end up with 70k debt plus the 20k from undergrad?

42k + two years of housing at 10k per year?

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:52 am

so I got that from

54k/year - 40k/year scholarship = 14k in tuition per year
two years of housing = 10k/year (20k total) based on ND's COA figures.

14k + 14k + 14k + 20k + random interest = 70kish

keep in mind his parents are paying for his personal expenses and whatnot

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Clearly
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby Clearly » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:58 am

twenty wrote:Maybe this is just one of those two ships in the night things, but that's sort of not what I'm going for. UPenn is "obviously superior" in many, many respects, but is placing students into outlying Pennsylvania county DA's offices one of them?

edit> I don't know if they're quite that high brut - if tuition at ND ends up averaging at 54k/year (it's 51k right now), 42k total + two years of housing at 10k/year maybe you end up with 70k debt plus the 20k from undergrad?


I'm gonna go ahead and say that Penn will improve his chances at fulfilling his goals for free over temple for free. Aside from the fact that it prob would make a more compelling application even for non competitive positions, he'd have access to more jobs that allow him to help more people or whatever he wants from life. Personally when I say retake I mean for a true full ride to a strong/stronger regional, not T14.

03152016
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby 03152016 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:59 am

@twenty
i was basing my numbers off the novel of an OP in which they stated they were "fully debt financing"
would be nice if they updated the OP with accurate information so that we can give proper advice

having said that, i still think OPs numbers are way off. i'll have a look

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:03 am

Brut wrote:@twenty
i was basing my numbers off the novel of an OP in which they stated they were "fully debt financing"


in that case, all bets are off. :P




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