Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which law school should I attend?

Notre Dame
12
57%
University of Miami
1
5%
Other (please explain)
0
No votes
Obligatory Retake Option
8
38%
 
Total votes: 21

irishamerican
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Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:24 pm

Thanks for the help, everyone!
I've decided to wait it out and retake!
Last edited by irishamerican on Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

future!jd12
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby future!jd12 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:27 pm

retake

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runinthefront
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby runinthefront » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:30 pm

although I think you'd be squandering your GPA, both options aren't terrible considering the standard "good standing" scholarships & your complete opposition to re-taking. I would go to the school in the region you have the strongest ties too (e.g., whichever school is closer to the area you've spent the most time/ have the most family...etc).

ETA: You said you would choose ND over Harvard in your prior thread; you're in at ND now and without a load of debt...this shouldn't be a question, right? Unless Miami > Harvard too?
Last edited by runinthefront on Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ub3r
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby ub3r » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:34 pm

Please retake. I would kill for that GPA. You yourself say you underperformed because of illness

Take a year off, make money, retake, get more money from better schools, save more money.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:45 pm

future!jd12 wrote:retake


Unless you have (and share) any actual reasoning behind that suggestion that directly applies to my situation, you're not being helpful at all.

runinthefront wrote:although I think you'd be squandering your GPA, both options aren't terrible considering the standard "good standing" scholarships & your complete opposition to re-taking. I would go to the school in the region you have the strongest ties too (e.g., whichever school is closer to the area you've spent the most time/ have the most family...etc).

ETA: If you said you'd choose ND over Harvard in your prior thread, you're in at ND now and without a load of debt...this shouldn't be a question, right? Unless Miami > Harvard too?


Oh, absolutely not. ND is absolutely where I want to go, but I'm trying to see if that can be responsibly justified. I mean, ~70k (total, counting ug) debt when I'm not planning on making more than a government salary... I don't want to commit financial suicide or anything. I want to go to ND, but I don't want to sacrifice my future financial stability. Like I said, what I care most about is my ability to do my job and help support a family. Is ~70k debt considered "without a load of debt"? Honest question, no sarcasm.

ub3r wrote:Please retake. I would kill for that GPA. You yourself say you underperformed because of illness

Take a year off, make money, retake, get more money from better schools, save more money.


I understand my fortune (not the right word) in terms of my GPA. I'm not trying to undervalue that. Had I taken the LSAT earlier, I would have retested already. The problem I have with taking a year off is that I have nowhere to be for that year, and I do not want to wait around living in limbo. Without knowing where I will be going to go to law school, I can either stay put in my UG town or choose somewhere else to move to, and possibly have to move again in another year. I know myself. I know that means I'll spend a year not putting down roots, hovering in limbo and not fully living. I can't do that. My sanity demands that I stop putting off my life.

itascot1992
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:48 pm

how is Miami COA 30k?

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:49 pm

Not retaking when you could get a big scholarship to a school like NYU seems like a colossally bad decision but you've gotta do you

If you want to be a prosecutor then go to the local flagship regional in the region you want to live and work in long term. "I'll live anywhere!" sounds good but will probably hurt you. Acquire some geographic focus (ideally you'll want to work in the place with your strongest ties) and get ready to hustle your bustle from the start.

Sounds like ND is out because you aren't from the Midwest (at least I think, I kinda skimmed that beast of an OP so maybe I misread)

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runinthefront
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby runinthefront » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:53 pm

I don't think I would go to any regional school with the possibility of $70,000 worth of debt hanging over my head. I would probably go to ND if I knew I would have $50k in debt--and no more--looming over my head when I got out. That's just what I'm subjectively comfortable with. If we take out the fact that you're squandering your GPA for relatively arbitrary reasons and simply look at the fact(s) that:

-assuming a government job, $50k would be a serviceable amount of debt

-higher paying jobs aren't entirely foreclosed from ND

-You're okay with working in the Midwest (and I'm assuming some sort of ties there)

leaving ND with $50k in debt is not a bad outcome. Once again, I personally wouldn't do it with $20k accruing interest for three years in addition to my law school loans, but I mean, that could be taken care of by simply taking a gap year before starting law school, with the goal of paying UG debt off.

Anyway, this is kind of your second thread on the matter, so I have little more to add; good luck!

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:58 pm

itascot1992 wrote:how is Miami COA 30k?


Two years' cost of living and books/fees. It might be a bit lower if I had paid summer work, but I figured I should assume worst case.

BigZuck wrote:Not retaking when you could get a big scholarship to a school like NYU seems like a colossally bad decision but you've gotta do you

If you want to be a prosecutor then go to the local flagship regional in the region you want to live and work in long term. "I'll live anywhere!" sounds good but will probably hurt you. Acquire some geographic focus (ideally you'll want to work in the place with your strongest ties) and get ready to hustle your bustle from the start.

Sounds like ND is out because you aren't from the Midwest (at least I think, I kinda skimmed that beast of an OP so maybe I misread)


You aren't wrong from your skimming, but...

Do you mind if I ask a bit more about this whole "ties" thing? Because technically my strongest ties are to NC, and I absolutely do not ever want to go back to that state again. I've got family and residency in FL, but I've never really "lived" there beyond some summers. I've got no real ties to my UG state, which is on the other side of the country... And I was born in NY and have some family there, but haven't lived there in over a decade. Still, that's the region I'm most interested in: the PA/NY area, but I can't speak for the Midwest because I've never lived there before. Now, I remember ND alumni networks being pretty strong in PA and NY. Am I mistaken in thinking that might help with the whole 'ties' issue?

future!jd12
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby future!jd12 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:03 pm

If you want geographic flexibility you should go to a T-14. If you retake LSAT and score a 170+ you'll have options that will leave you with less debt than you're current options (Cornell for free etc.). Take a year off, get a job (try and get a job at a V100 law firm as a paralegal, it won't be hard with that GPA and competent interview skills.) Pay off UG debt in this time. DO NOT WASTE THAT GPA

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:04 pm

irishamerican wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:how is Miami COA 30k?


Two years' cost of living and books/fees. It might be a bit lower if I had paid summer work, but I figured I should assume worst case.

BigZuck wrote:Not retaking when you could get a big scholarship to a school like NYU seems like a colossally bad decision but you've gotta do you

If you want to be a prosecutor then go to the local flagship regional in the region you want to live and work in long term. "I'll live anywhere!" sounds good but will probably hurt you. Acquire some geographic focus (ideally you'll want to work in the place with your strongest ties) and get ready to hustle your bustle from the start.

Sounds like ND is out because you aren't from the Midwest (at least I think, I kinda skimmed that beast of an OP so maybe I misread)


You aren't wrong from your skimming, but...

Do you mind if I ask a bit more about this whole "ties" thing? Because technically my strongest ties are to NC, and I absolutely do not ever want to go back to that state again. I've got family and residency in FL, but I've never really "lived" there beyond some summers. I've got no real ties to my UG state, which is on the other side of the country... And I was born in NY and have some family there, but haven't lived there in over a decade. Still, that's the region I'm most interested in: the PA/NY area, but I can't speak for the Midwest because I've never lived there before. Now, I remember ND alumni networks being pretty strong in PA and NY. Am I mistaken in thinking that might help with the whole 'ties' issue?

If you want PI in NY or PA you're going to have to hustle to get a job. Can't hustle when you're learning criminal procedure:investigation or whatever other inanities you'll have to suffer as a law student in Indiana.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to get a PI job across the country but you're likely going to make it a lot harder on yourself. Most legal hiring is very regional in nature and that definitely applies to the type of PI you're talking about from what I understand.

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chuckbass
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:08 pm

irishamerican wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:how is Miami COA 30k?


Two years' cost of living and books/fees. It might be a bit lower if I had paid summer work, but I figured I should assume worst case.

So you're just not gonna finish out the third year?

15k/yr also sounds pretty low in general for COL, plus you're clearly not factoring in interest.

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:09 pm

I have a feeling you will read that and see that it's "possible" and therefore run off to Notre Dame. But here's the thing about government hiring: sometimes there are freezes or very few openings. If you really want to be a prosecutor in Pennsylvania they are probably going to take the Temple kid who interned there over the summers and during the school year over the Notre Dame kid with no ties who only spent her summers there.

I wouldn't mess with employment chances just cuz you really like football games or leprechauns or whatever

itascot1992
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:09 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
irishamerican wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:how is Miami COA 30k?


Two years' cost of living and books/fees. It might be a bit lower if I had paid summer work, but I figured I should assume worst case.

So you're just not gonna finish out the third year?

15k/yr also sounds pretty low in general for COL, plus you're clearly not factoring in interest.


I dont belive UM has a AJD, 15k a year won't cover COA in miami, unless you are living with family for free/cheap

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chuckbass
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:14 pm

Also having done undergrad in PA and having lived in Philly and Harrisburg I never got the sense of any strong ND alumni network.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:19 pm

BigZuck wrote:I have a feeling you will read that and see that it's "possible" and therefore run off to Notre Dame. But here's the thing about government hiring: sometimes there are freezes or very few openings. If you really want to be a prosecutor in Pennsylvania they are probably going to take the Temple kid who interned there over the summers and during the school year over the Notre Dame kid with no ties who only spent her summers there.

I wouldn't mess with employment chances just cuz you really like football games or leprechauns or whatever


I'm not going to lie about what I'm hoping to hear from this thread; I want to hear that I should go to ND. But I'm capable of keeping those hopes in check. I know that ND might not be the wisest choice. I know that, and contrary to popular belief, I'm not trying to run off anywhere. I'm just trying to pick a place I can start to settle down. Yeah, PA/NY is my idea of a climate and culture I generally like, but I'm not dead set on ending up there. I'll go where I can find a job. Maybe I'll go where my Significant Other can find a job. I don't know.

Your point still stands, but for the record, it's not about football games. I'd like to have that experience because I didn't have that for UG, but what I really want is the commitment to service. The Catholic atmosphere does play a role to me. And I get that it can't play a significant role, but I'm not going to deny that's a factor.

scottidsntknow wrote:So you're just not gonna finish out the third year?

15k/yr also sounds pretty low in general for COL, plus you're clearly not factoring in interest.


You're right; I'm not factoring in interest, other than what's already accumulated from UG. As to the two year and 15k/yr part, that's because my family is covering one year and certain things (medical, phone, etc) are being covered until after I graduate. I struck a strange deal with my parents when I decided to graduate early. It's complicated.

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SweetTort
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby SweetTort » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:05 pm

People are getting Dillards at UVA with 4.0's and 168's. That's 3 questions. You really don't think it's worth it to try again for three flippin' questions?

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:22 pm

SweetTort wrote:People are getting Dillards at UVA with 4.0's and 168's. That's 3 questions. You really don't think it's worth it to try again for three flippin' questions?


Firstly, it's not about having to try again. As I said, I'd happily try again. If I hadn't graduated early, and had taken the LSAT the first time with plenty of time to spare, I would have tried again. If the June LSAT counted, I'd try again. But I'm not comfortable living in limbo for another year. I get that that might not make sense to the majority of people on here, but that's the truth. For the sake of my mental health, I need to be able to actually live, not hover in a state of uncertainty, where I can't even put down roots. I can't survive without roots any longer; I haven't had roots in over a decade. I need them. To put off law school for a year means I'd have to hover somewhere in between for another year, and I know myself well enough to know that I can't do that. I can't.

More importantly though, I don't know why it really matters whether I go to ND or UVA. I don't want to go to BigLaw. I can understand the full ride vs debt situation, but I'm not one of the T14-or-bust people.

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:32 pm

I feel confident saying that law school isn't what you think it is (especially at Notre Dame) and that it, in and of itself, isn't going to bring you what you think it's going to bring you.

I know, I know, I don't know you, etc. But I dont really see this working out the way you want/think it will.

Seems like there is a lot of personal stuff you need to work out and obviously that is outside TLS' expertise. Personally, I can only speak very broadly as to what I know about legal employment from reading this forum, other real people's job search, and going through the process myself during law school. If you have modest PI goals I think your best bet is a regional flagship for cheap.

Good luck.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:35 pm

Are you kidding? Notre Dame is in South Bend, Indiana. There aren't any legal jobs there. So if you're going to school because you need to finally put down some roots you've picked an absolutely terrible place.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:59 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Are you kidding? Notre Dame is in South Bend, Indiana. There aren't any legal jobs there. So if you're going to school because you need to finally put down some roots you've picked an absolutely terrible place.


I'm not expecting to stay in South Bend, but I could expect to make friends and a life and settle down, without constantly knowing that I was planning on moving across the country. If I stayed where I am now for a year, that wouldn't be the case at all. I don't need to know the exact city I'm going to live in forever, but I do need to be open to at least staying in the general region. If a relationship gets serious in law school, we can try to figure it out and I can be open to moving as necessary, but if a relationship got serious right now, where I am... I'm surrounded by people who refuse to ever leave the state, and I refuse to stay in it. I'm oversimplifying the issue on purpose.

BigZuck wrote:I feel confident saying that law school isn't what you think it is (especially at Notre Dame) and that it, in and of itself, isn't going to bring you what you think it's going to bring you.

I know, I know, I don't know you, etc. But I dont really see this working out the way you want/think it will.

Seems like there is a lot of personal stuff you need to work out and obviously that is outside TLS' expertise. Personally, I can only speak very broadly as to what I know about legal employment from reading this forum, other real people's job search, and going through the process myself during law school. If you have modest PI goals I think your best bet is a regional flagship for cheap.

Good luck.


That's fair. Can you explain what you think the disconnect is? What I'm expecting vs what it will bring me? I just don't know how to take your statement without understanding what you mean.

Really, I don't have personal stuff to work out outside of the simple fact that I do not want to take a year off. I just want to pick a school and go. I feel like that's a fairly simple thing as far as personal things to work out go.

But I very much appreciate the advice! Regional flagship for cheap. Noted! (:

BigZuck
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:08 pm

There's some need to flee/avoid your past going on, and it sounds like you're only like 22 and yet you have GOT TO GO NOW. I'm not really going to touch that other to say that adding law school on top of that isn't really going to make anything better in my opinion/from my experience.

As for Notre Dame, the Catholic thing seems superficial to me and shouldn't have anything to do with choosing a law school. I also doubt ND's COMMITMENT TO SERVICE is a real thing, or at least, any more real than at basically any other law school. Just sounds like marketing material to me.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby shifty_eyed » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:18 pm

BigZuck wrote:There's some need to flee/avoid your past going on, and it sounds like you're only like 22 and yet you have GOT TO GO NOW. I'm not really going to touch that other to say that adding law school on top of that isn't really going to make anything better in my opinion/from my experience.


More like 20. He graduated a year early.

I don't understand the rush.

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twenty
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby twenty » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:28 pm

1) Do some serious soul searching as to whether you want to be a DA, or you just don't want to retake. A lot, and I mean a lot of people come into law school convinced they want to be DAs only to realize they really don't want to do it as much as they thought they did.

2) Miami and Notre Dame at those costs are objectively good choices. You could choose either one. Perhaps one is a better option than another, but who knows. I wouldn't write off Emory quite so fast, but I wouldn't attend if COA is more than 80k.

3) With a retake, you could find yourself with a full ride at a school that gives you access to a market you actually want to be in. You don't know what market you want to be in, and there is a massive difference between being an ADA in buttfuckalo county, Indiana, and Miami. You will be very hard pressed to get into those other markets you mentioned from either school.

4) "limbo" probably means getting a job and volunteering in whatever PI field you're interested in that week. That experience will be pretty valuable come time to actually get into ADA work.

irishamerican
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Re: Decisions, Decisions! (ND vs. UM)

Postby irishamerican » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:30 pm

BigZuck wrote:There's some need to flee/avoid your past going on, and it sounds like you're only like 22 and yet you have GOT TO GO NOW. I'm not really going to touch that other to say that adding law school on top of that isn't really going to make anything better in my opinion/from my experience.

As for Notre Dame, the Catholic thing seems superficial to me and shouldn't have anything to do with choosing a law school. I also doubt ND's COMMITMENT TO SERVICE is a real thing, or at least, any more real than at basically any other law school. Just sounds like marketing material to me.


I can see where you're getting that from. Believe me, I can. Actually, there was some fleeing/avoidance, so you're not really wrong. That was undergraduate for me--fleeing childhood and whatnot. Haha, oh, I've learned from that. I'm not fleeing right now; if I was, I wouldn't be considering a school where my family is. (; I'm just tired of waiting. I have the got-to-go-now urge, sure, but only because I actually know what I want for my life, and I'm not interested in sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Life's short, and all. I'd like to get to work and start making a difference. I'm done with the avoiding thing from undergrad. I'd like to continue living now. Now. Not in one year.

But I'm rambling, and you're not really interested in my rationalizations. I apologize.

I'm a marketing minor, so I know what you mean. I'm sure it is partly just for marketing. I can appreciate the marketing skill and not buy into it. But I don't know... it felt like more than marketing when I visited the school when looking at UGs. The other people there seemed to have a similar commitment to service. That feeling mattered to me. Like I said, though, I recognize that it should not be a huge factor and I am doing my best to limit its influence. It is a factor, though, but it's a small one.

shifty_eyed wrote:More like 20. He graduated a year early.

I don't understand the rush.


You're right. But just like you don't understand the rush, I don't understand the ability to sit around twiddling thumbs contentedly. We're just different people, you and I.




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