Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

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NYU or Berkeley

NYU
23
43%
Berkeley
30
57%
 
Total votes: 53

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Kronk
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:19 am

I actually think it's easier for Berkeley students to get BigLaw jobs in NYC than it is for Berkeley students to get BigLaw jobs in SF or LA. There are simply more firms with huge classes in NYC, and with your ties, as long as you do halfway decently (and even if you don't) I think you'll get a job in NYC BigLaw.

It's not true that everyone that wants BigLaw at Berkeley gets it. Certainly not true. But most do, and I would venture to guess that the people that don't are usually just unprepared for OCI (wear something wrong, aim to high or too low during the bidding process, bid only on smaller markets like SF or LA, etc.) or incredibly unlucky.

03152016
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:20 am

no need to go into detail
i know family issues can be hairy, and if you really have to skip town, do what you need to do
but not to beat a dead horse, these are generally not good reasons to choose berk over nyu

if you want to rationalize berk, i'll do it for you
"sf isn't a fallback, i am really serious about working sf biglaw. i want to keep that option open"
there, done. you've found a solid reason to pick berk

so my point isn't don't go to berk. my point is, if you pick berk, have a solid rationale so you won't regret the decision later

Big Dog
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Big Dog » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:28 am

It's not true that everyone that wants BigLaw at Berkeley gets it. Certainly not true. But most do,


The exact same could be said for NYU. :wink:

one big difference is that the mass of NYU matriculants are from the NE and are more than happy to stay in NY. OTOH, many choose Boalt (and S and UCLA and...) for the main purpose of staying on the Left Coast. Perhaps SO/family. Perhaps a tech/VC wannabe. In any event, some of those would rather take a perceived chance on the Left Coast lifestyle then sell their soul to BL in Manhattan.

Agree with the other posters: San Fran BL is much harder to obtain than NYC BL.

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Smoking Gunner
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Smoking Gunner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:33 am

Brut wrote:no need to go into detail
i know family issues can be hairy, and if you really have to skip town, do what you need to do
but not to beat a dead horse, these are generally not good reasons to choose berk over nyu

if you want to rationalize berk, i'll do it for you
"sf isn't a fallback, i am really serious about working sf biglaw. i want to keep that option open"
there, done. you've found a solid reason to pick berk

so my point isn't don't go to berk. my point is, if you pick berk, have a solid rationale so you won't regret the decision later


Again, the family issues are a negative, but I wouldn't decide on a law school purely based on that. I'm mainly concerned with whether NYU will put me in significantly better position to get a ny biglaw job. The LST stats can be heavily skewed by self selection, so I'm wondering if anyone has any stats/anecdotal evidence about the likelihood of getting ny biglaw from Berkeley as compared to NYU. If the NYU prospects are much better, I can stay in nyc for 3 years and feel fine about it, but if everything's equal I'd lean towards Berkeley.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Kungfu Wontons » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:35 am

Brut wrote:no need to go into detail
i know family issues can be hairy, and if you really have to skip town, do what you need to do
but not to beat a dead horse, these are generally not good reasons to choose berk over nyu

if you want to rationalize berk, i'll do it for you
"sf isn't a fallback, i am really serious about working sf biglaw. i want to keep that option open"
there, done. you've found a solid reason to pick berk

so my point isn't don't go to berk. my point is, if you pick berk, have a solid rationale so you won't regret the decision later


Dude, don't you think it's a little presumptuous to say that you know better than OP how OP should make an important decision in his life? I also think it's staggeringly presumptuous of you to suggest that the OP needs family counseling. OP has legitimate concerns. Props to OP for being very gracious in his response - I almost certainly would not have been.

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Kronk
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:35 am

Big Dog wrote:
It's not true that everyone that wants BigLaw at Berkeley gets it. Certainly not true. But most do,


The exact same could be said for NYU. :wink:

one big difference is that the mass of NYU matriculants are from the NE and are more than happy to stay in NY. OTOH, many choose Boalt (and S and UCLA and...) for the main purpose of staying on the Left Coast. Perhaps SO/family. Perhaps a tech/VC wannabe. In any event, some of those would rather take a perceived chance on the Left Coast lifestyle then sell their soul to BL in Manhattan.

Agree with the other posters: San Fran BL is much harder to obtain than NYC BL.


It could be said for NYU, but as a Berkeley Law alum who made the same B over CCN decision the OP is making, statistically I think you're slightly less likely to strike out of BigLaw at NYU than Berkeley, which should be a consideration for the OP if that's his or her chosen career path. Like I said, I think most will have no problem if they approach it correctly, but if you want the sure thing, NYU is closer for whatever reason (probably geography).

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jbagelboy
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:39 am

I'm with Brut on this one, if you want to return to New York to work at a large firm, NYU has a sizable placement advantage over Berkeley. Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented. I think NYU even has an advantage in public interest in DC/NY, which negates any self-selection argument by Cal students. Of course, the situation would be reversed if you were CA-or-death.

I don't think Berkeley's grading system provides any tangible advantage for its students in job placement. If so, it would play out in the data. First, you want firm work, and Berkeley is uncontroversially near the bottom of the elite schools in firm placement. Second, New York University hammers Cal on nearly every metric. It leaves 4-7% less of its class unemployed or underemployed; it places significantly better into firms, as already noted; and, discounting for the fact that Cal has more school funded positions, NYU places more students into public interest careers. And this is all while supporting a class more than 1.5 times the size, without mention of geography.

I can't speak to your friends and family circumstance, none of us can. Obviously there might be compelling personal reasons to switch coasts. It's not crazy to go to Cal, since you won't have debt anyway. It's just not *the optimal* move for your chosen career.

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Smoking Gunner
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Smoking Gunner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:52 am

jbagelboy wrote:I'm with Brut on this one, if you want to return to New York to work at a large firm, NYU has a sizable placement advantage over Berkeley. Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented. I think NYU even has an advantage in public interest in DC/NY, which negates any self-selection argument by Cal students. Of course, the situation would be reversed if you were CA-or-death.

I don't think Berkeley's grading system provides any tangible advantage for its students in job placement. If so, it would play out in the data. First, you want firm work, and Berkeley is uncontroversially near the bottom of the elite schools in firm placement. Second, New York University hammers Cal on nearly every metric. It leaves 4-7% less of its class unemployed or underemployed; it places significantly better into firms, as already noted; and, discounting for the fact that Cal has more school funded positions, NYU places more students into public interest careers. And this is all while supporting a class more than 1.5 times the size, without mention of geography.

I can't speak to your friends and family circumstance, none of us can. Obviously there might be compelling personal reasons to switch coasts. It's not crazy to go to Cal, since you won't have debt anyway. It's just not *the optimal* move for your chosen career.


Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:56 am

qwerty125 wrote:For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

Why?

I know one person who went to Berkeley. He struck out at OCI. So it ain't all self selection.

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Aeon
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Aeon » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:59 am

jbagelboy wrote:Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented.


Is this because Berkeley students strike out for these positions or there are simply very few of them who are interested in working in NYC? In some respects, it might be easier for a student coming from Berkeley to get a position in New York, as they aren't really competing against their classmates for those jobs.

This isn't to discount that going to NYU will provide a significant networking advantage for someone who wants to remain in New York (if you go to Berkeley, most of your law school network will remain in California) and might offer more of a chance of finding a position at the highest echelon of New York BigLaw firms.

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Smoking Gunner
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Smoking Gunner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:00 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
qwerty125 wrote:For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

Why?

I know one person who went to Berkeley. He struck out at OCI. So it ain't all self selection.


Sorry, that is admittedly just speculation based on the vibes I got from both schools.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Kungfu Wontons » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
qwerty125 wrote:For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

Why?

I know one person who went to Berkeley. He struck out at OCI. So it ain't all self selection.


Mm fair point, I'd probably think the same of NYU students though: my perception is that NYU students are very practical, while Berkeley is less so. Based on people I've met and overall rep.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:03 pm

qwerty125 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I'm with Brut on this one, if you want to return to New York to work at a large firm, NYU has a sizable placement advantage over Berkeley. Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented. I think NYU even has an advantage in public interest in DC/NY, which negates any self-selection argument by Cal students. Of course, the situation would be reversed if you were CA-or-death.

I don't think Berkeley's grading system provides any tangible advantage for its students in job placement. If so, it would play out in the data. First, you want firm work, and Berkeley is uncontroversially near the bottom of the elite schools in firm placement. Second, New York University hammers Cal on nearly every metric. It leaves 4-7% less of its class unemployed or underemployed; it places significantly better into firms, as already noted; and, discounting for the fact that Cal has more school funded positions, NYU places more students into public interest careers. And this is all while supporting a class more than 1.5 times the size, without mention of geography.

I can't speak to your friends and family circumstance, none of us can. Obviously there might be compelling personal reasons to switch coasts. It's not crazy to go to Cal, since you won't have debt anyway. It's just not *the optimal* move for your chosen career.


Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

why would people self-select out of biglaw more at berk than nyu?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:13 pm

NYU has a lot of rich hippies so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some self-selection towards non-traditional paths. Demetri Martin can't be the only former student who left to become a comedian. And with about 5% of their class on full ride public interest scholarships, and many more self-selecting straight into PI, NYU's biglaw numbers definitely don't do justice to its placement power.

I'd be curious to know how many NYC firms come to Berkeley's OCI. I know all the big players with huge classes go there, but those ones tend to be the most grade selective. If the next couple tiers of firms down largely skip out because they don't have enough interest, it could put you in a tough spot if your grades are below median. You'll probably be fine but that's something to think about. One of the reasons NYU does so well is that it's so easy to get in front of dozens of big firms.

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Smoking Gunner
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Smoking Gunner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:19 pm

Brut wrote:
qwerty125 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I'm with Brut on this one, if you want to return to New York to work at a large firm, NYU has a sizable placement advantage over Berkeley. Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented. I think NYU even has an advantage in public interest in DC/NY, which negates any self-selection argument by Cal students. Of course, the situation would be reversed if you were CA-or-death.

I don't think Berkeley's grading system provides any tangible advantage for its students in job placement. If so, it would play out in the data. First, you want firm work, and Berkeley is uncontroversially near the bottom of the elite schools in firm placement. Second, New York University hammers Cal on nearly every metric. It leaves 4-7% less of its class unemployed or underemployed; it places significantly better into firms, as already noted; and, discounting for the fact that Cal has more school funded positions, NYU places more students into public interest careers. And this is all while supporting a class more than 1.5 times the size, without mention of geography.

I can't speak to your friends and family circumstance, none of us can. Obviously there might be compelling personal reasons to switch coasts. It's not crazy to go to Cal, since you won't have debt anyway. It's just not *the optimal* move for your chosen career.


Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.

why would people self-select out of biglaw more at berk than nyu?


Another assumption. That's part of the reason I made this thread--to either validate or discredit these assumptions.

03152016
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:20 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:NYU has a lot of rich hippies so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some self-selection towards non-traditional paths. Demetri Martin can't be the only former student who left to become a comedian. And with about 5% of their class on full ride public interest scholarships, and many more self-selecting straight into PI, NYU's biglaw numbers definitely don't do justice to its placement power.

mickey factz went to nyu before becoming a rapper

"What's goin' on, unpaid cable
Left my label, their unchanged angle
Tried to outfox me, Bad Boy locks me
But NYU law taught me about proxies."

@ 0:46: http://www.audiomack.com/song/hiphopfeeling/serenade

if op wants BigHipHop, the choice is clear

drumstickies
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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby drumstickies » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:25 pm

I chose B over NYU. Berkeley can definitely bring you back to NYC, sometimes even if you are below median. That said, I would choose NYU in your situation. Berkeley does not have an "anti-gunner" vibe -- at all. Come back in a few weeks, when finals are close by, and you'll see what I mean. A lot of this is a result of the grading system, not in spite of it. It can be difficult to distinguish yourself from the pack here. All to say-- don't come here for soft, intangible reasons (like vibe or weather). Berkeley still fulfills the worst of law school stereotypes, simply because it's a law school.

The market in which you choose to go to school is a big deal, even at top schools. If you want CA (which is why I chose B), it's Berkeley hands down. I've met many people who turned down the CCN spectrum to come here because of that. We have a ton of CA firms that come to OCI. However, if you want NYC, then B's much less defensible. Also, it can be nice having your family/friends close by. I'm from the Bay Area, so it's been nice to get out of the law school bubble. I can imagine that it might be nice as well for you to have family close by, even if it comes at the cost of occasionally seeing them when you don't want to.

Anyway, those are my thoughts-- best of luck! You won't go wrong either way.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:29 pm

qwerty125 wrote:Another assumption. That's part of the reason I made this thread--to either validate or discredit these assumptions.

yeah i don't think opting out of biglaw explains the difference
berk pi self selection is usually used to explain low bl/fc (see: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=226198)
but that argument doesn't work so well when you're comparing berk and nyu directly
berk has a 20.9% pi score, 8.6% school-funded (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/berkeley/)
nyu has a 19% pi score, 9.6% school-funded (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/nyu/)

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Big Dog » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:32 pm

Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented.


I used to know a recruiter for Goldman Sachs who recruited west coast. (yes, b-school recruiting, not law.) She used to say that it was hard to get west coasters to go east. Many top grads just don't want to leave the Left Coast. (yeah I know, its hard to believe for north easterners.)

So the statistical question, that no one can answer, is how much self-selection occurs by matriculants at west coast law schools? If the the yield of recruiters from say, V50-100, is not very high, NY firms just will just stop attending. It doesn't mean that they don't or won't take a Boalt student; rather, it may just mean that their yield is not worth the cost to attend the OCI.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby arose928 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:34 pm

In a Q&A session with Dean Tom during ASW, someone asked the question "Why Berk if I am from NYC/in at NYC/want to be there after graduation" and he said basically that Berkeley students represent diversity for firms that see a glut of C/NYU/east coast grads, so that gives you a leg up.

NO idea if this is true, and given the context, would take it with a large grain of salt. I'm going to Berk, but shooting for PI in CA so didn't really think much of it.

He also mentioned - and this I do think is true - that if you've been in basically one place your whole life, it's not a bad idea to go somewhere else (and somewhere nice!) for a few years for a break. If I was you I think I would go to Berk just for the change of scenery, because I think if you want to you can still working at ending up back in NYC.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:39 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Many top firms in the city won't even have a Cal student in their summer class, whereas NYU (along with CLS/HLS) is always well represented.


I used to know a recruiter for Goldman Sachs who recruited west coast. (yes, b-school recruiting, not law.) She used to say that it was hard to get west coasters to go east. Many top grads just don't want to leave the Left Coast. (yeah I know, its hard to believe for north easterners.)

So the statistical question, that no one can answer, is how much self-selection occurs by matriculants at west coast law schools? If the the yield of recruiters from say, V50-100, is not very high, NY firms just will just stop attending. It doesn't mean that they don't or won't take a Boalt student; rather, it may just mean that their yield is not worth the cost to attend the OCI.

But in practice mass mailing is a much more difficult path to finding a job than having firms come to you.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby The King » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:44 pm

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Last edited by The King on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:45 pm

This thread is exposing several of the more well known and pernicious tropes.

Aeon wrote:Is this because Berkeley students strike out for these positions or there are simply very few of them who are interested in working in NYC? In some respects, it might be easier for a student coming from Berkeley to get a position in New York, as they aren't really competing against their classmates for those jobs.


Certainly, you're right not all Cal students are bidding NYC. But you'd think, year after year, with more and more aggregation of data and institutional memory, if NYC big law was truly a backup option, everyone below median would have it in their playbook. And moreover, they aren't just competing against their classmates, their competing against all the other top law programs as well. But we don't need speculation: 85% of 2Ls participate in EIW, and only 60% of those participants receive offers. Sure, there's some mass mail movement but that's true at every school. NYU's numbers are upwards of 80% offer rate.

Aeon wrote:This isn't to discount that going to NYU will provide a significant networking advantage for someone who wants to remain in New York (if you go to Berkeley, most of your law school network will remain in California) and might offer more of a chance of finding a position at the highest echelon of New York BigLaw firms.


Networking is only marginally relevant at best to landing a summer associate gig. Yea, you can go to firm events, collect business cards, sip your old fashioned and enjoy those bite size tapas and conversations, but grades, resume & interview ability are 95%+ of the game. NYU's strength in firm hiring is not a result of the networking opportunities it provides for its students; it's more the institutional tie between the school and the firms, but this goes towards why you'd pick one school over another, not why a particular student might succeed or fail as a result of some vague proximity advantage. "Networking" and ground game matters for small firms and public interest, where it's particularly important to be local, but it doesn't do much work for national firms.

qwerty125 wrote:Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.


I wouldn't let a couple anecdotes from directionless law students sway you away from hard data. People make really asinine comments when they are trying to construct an anti-corporate or non-conformist student culture. I think Berkeley does have a terrific public interest community and real support for those initiatives, but not moreso than NYU. I know when you meet people in person -- and you meet a lot of people at admitted students -- it's tough psychologically not to take their advise more personally and impute a higher caliber of validity. Strike that reflex and do the opposite.

I've already addressed the last point about self-selection significantly, so please reread my earlier post. Yes, sure, Berkeley has some self selection out of big law, as does NYU and every school. As Tiaggo pointed out, structurally speaking due to RTK/Furman/ect, NYU has likely to have higher self-selection out of big law than other schools. Whenever Michigan, Berkeley or GULC students talk about self selection out of large firms into public interest or gov, it's a half-truth and a bad rationalization at best, since their OCI numbers don't under-participate, they underperform relative to T6 students (who are also more competitive for government positions)

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Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Smoking Gunner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:17 pm

jbagelboy wrote:This thread is exposing several of the more well known and pernicious tropes.

Aeon wrote:Is this because Berkeley students strike out for these positions or there are simply very few of them who are interested in working in NYC? In some respects, it might be easier for a student coming from Berkeley to get a position in New York, as they aren't really competing against their classmates for those jobs.


Certainly, you're right not all Cal students are bidding NYC. But you'd think, year after year, with more and more aggregation of data and institutional memory, if NYC big law was truly a backup option, everyone below median would have it in their playbook. And moreover, they aren't just competing against their classmates, their competing against all the other top law programs as well. But we don't need speculation: 85% of 2Ls participate in EIW, and only 60% of those participants receive offers. Sure, there's some mass mail movement but that's true at every school. NYU's numbers are upwards of 80% offer rate.

Aeon wrote:This isn't to discount that going to NYU will provide a significant networking advantage for someone who wants to remain in New York (if you go to Berkeley, most of your law school network will remain in California) and might offer more of a chance of finding a position at the highest echelon of New York BigLaw firms.


Networking is only marginally relevant at best to landing a summer associate gig. Yea, you can go to firm events, collect business cards, sip your old fashioned and enjoy those bite size tapas and conversations, but grades, resume & interview ability are 95%+ of the game. NYU's strength in firm hiring is not a result of the networking opportunities it provides for its students; it's more the institutional tie between the school and the firms, but this goes towards why you'd pick one school over another, not why a particular student might succeed or fail as a result of some vague proximity advantage. "Networking" and ground game matters for small firms and public interest, where it's particularly important to be local, but it doesn't do much work for national firms.

qwerty125 wrote:Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.


I wouldn't let a couple anecdotes from directionless law students sway you away from hard data. People make really asinine comments when they are trying to construct an anti-corporate or non-conformist student culture. I think Berkeley does have a terrific public interest community and real support for those initiatives, but not moreso than NYU. I know when you meet people in person -- and you meet a lot of people at admitted students -- it's tough psychologically not to take their advise more personally and impute a higher caliber of validity. Strike that reflex and do the opposite.

I've already addressed the last point about self-selection significantly, so please reread my earlier post. Yes, sure, Berkeley has some self selection out of big law, as does NYU and every school. As Tiaggo pointed out, structurally speaking due to RTK/Furman/ect, NYU has likely to have higher self-selection out of big law than other schools. Whenever Michigan, Berkeley or GULC students talk about self selection out of large firms into public interest or gov, it's a half-truth and a bad rationalization at best, since their OCI numbers don't under-participate, they underperform relative to T6 students (who are also more competitive for government positions)


Well damn. A+ post man, I appreciate it.

Kungfu Wontons
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:21 am

Re: Am I crazy to go to Berkeley over NYU?

Postby Kungfu Wontons » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:23 pm

jbagelboy wrote:This thread is exposing several of the more well known and pernicious tropes.

Aeon wrote:Is this because Berkeley students strike out for these positions or there are simply very few of them who are interested in working in NYC? In some respects, it might be easier for a student coming from Berkeley to get a position in New York, as they aren't really competing against their classmates for those jobs.


Certainly, you're right not all Cal students are bidding NYC. But you'd think, year after year, with more and more aggregation of data and institutional memory, if NYC big law was truly a backup option, everyone below median would have it in their playbook. And moreover, they aren't just competing against their classmates, their competing against all the other top law programs as well. But we don't need speculation: 85% of 2Ls participate in EIW, and only 60% of those participants receive offers. Sure, there's some mass mail movement but that's true at every school. NYU's numbers are upwards of 80% offer rate.

Aeon wrote:This isn't to discount that going to NYU will provide a significant networking advantage for someone who wants to remain in New York (if you go to Berkeley, most of your law school network will remain in California) and might offer more of a chance of finding a position at the highest echelon of New York BigLaw firms.


Networking is only marginally relevant at best to landing a summer associate gig. Yea, you can go to firm events, collect business cards, sip your old fashioned and enjoy those bite size tapas and conversations, but grades, resume & interview ability are 95%+ of the game. NYU's strength in firm hiring is not a result of the networking opportunities it provides for its students; it's more the institutional tie between the school and the firms, but this goes towards why you'd pick one school over another, not why a particular student might succeed or fail as a result of some vague proximity advantage. "Networking" and ground game matters for small firms and public interest, where it's particularly important to be local, but it doesn't do much work for national firms.

qwerty125 wrote:Very helpful post, thank you! I have some trepidation about relying on LST data though. For instance, I talked to three students at Berkeley who said that they were getting their jd "just to have it," but that they were undecided on a career path (I really hope they weren't taking out loans...)--I found this pretty shocking, and it's something I doubt would be true of many NYU students. Plus the lack of biglaw placement could still be self-selection.


I wouldn't let a couple anecdotes from directionless law students sway you away from hard data. People make really asinine comments when they are trying to construct an anti-corporate or non-conformist student culture. I think Berkeley does have a terrific public interest community and real support for those initiatives, but not moreso than NYU. I know when you meet people in person -- and you meet a lot of people at admitted students -- it's tough psychologically not to take their advise more personally and impute a higher caliber of validity. Strike that reflex and do the opposite.

I've already addressed the last point about self-selection significantly, so please reread my earlier post. Yes, sure, Berkeley has some self selection out of big law, as does NYU and every school. As Tiaggo pointed out, structurally speaking due to RTK/Furman/ect, NYU has likely to have higher self-selection out of big law than other schools. Whenever Michigan, Berkeley or GULC students talk about self selection out of large firms into public interest or gov, it's a half-truth and a bad rationalization at best, since their OCI numbers don't under-participate, they underperform relative to T6 students (who are also more competitive for government positions)


I find this convincing.

OP looks like you're gonna take a hit for recruiting with B, so all else equal def take NYU. Now you can just weigh personal factors against the magnitude of the difference in recruiting.




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