Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

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itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

How is this list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?


That is what i was saying when i said "FWIW widener is also on this list"

Ah, I see, Ann was the one who originally posted it and you were responding to it

Ann- How is that list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?


It seems to be somewhat related to how NLJ ranks programs, but it specifies partners, i tried looking at the executive summary then decided i didn't care enough

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

How is this list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?


That is what i was saying when i said "FWIW widener is also on this list"

Ah, I see, Ann was the one who originally posted it and you were responding to it

Ann- How is that list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?

*SPOILER ALERT*
It's not

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:38 pm

OP said he didn't want big law. Why is big law being discussed?

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:47 pm

In my post I advised OP that, in reality, big law prospect should probably matter to him, so I grabbed some recent stats assessing big law. This particular index I don't love because it doesn't really share any meaningful input numbers, so we all must take it for what it's worth. The reasons to put a little stock in it (enough for me to post) is that the numbers 1) are at least somewhat probative of whether substantial numbers of grads are getting into big law, enough to eventually make it there, and 2) give some clues about the level of present-day OCI participation; at the very least, an absence of substantial numbers strongly suggests OCI non-participation. If you are running a prestigious firm's recruiting, what are the odds that you're going to X school for recruiting if you don't have any partners from X school? Obviously, big firms lead the way in promoting pedigree-based hiring. This stat gives at least a limited window into predicting their pedigree judgments.

Now that I've given that highly couched explanation, why do you guys say there's NO meaning whatsoever to the list?

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:53 pm

im probably going out on a huge limb here but OP said he didn't want biglaw. so seems kinda irrelevant.

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:09 pm

Raw numbers don't say anything in particular. If school A has 600 grads a year and school B has 150 grads a year it wouldn't be surprising if A had more grads become partners. Doesn't mean it's easier to become partner as a grad of school A, it might be much easier from school B.

Also, it's crazy hard to become a big law partner no matter what and it is very difficult to get big law from any of these schools.

It's really not a helpful gauge for anything pertinent to the OP.

This thread is becoming a trainwreck. Johann is now here. That's not good. Please guys, stop doing that TLS thing of typing tangential at best stuff just to hear yourself type and let's wait for the OP to come back. I think I asked some reasonable questions. Let's see his response first.

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DaRascal
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby DaRascal » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:55 pm

Yeah Villanova's not really in Temple's stratosphere.


Temple tied for #52 (High T2 status)
Villanova tied for #87 (pushing that TTT territory)


Perhaps you were thinking of college basketball or sumtin :lol:

03152016
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:14 pm

BigZuck wrote:This thread is becoming a trainwreck. Johann is now here. That's not good. Please guys, stop doing that TLS thing of typing tangential at best stuff just to hear yourself type and let's wait for the OP to come back. I think I asked some reasonable questions. Let's see his response first.

the on-topics have been flooded with idiots lately
i don't remember it ever being this bad

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:40 pm

DaRascal wrote:Yeah Villanova's not really in Temple's stratosphere.


Temple tied for #52 (High T2 status)
Villanova tied for #87 (pushing that TTT territory)


Perhaps you were thinking of college basketball or sumtin :lol:


VU ranks is low bc of the admissions scandal of like 6-8 years ago, its working its way back up every year, it was as high as 61 at one time and at that point, was well ahead of temple. The Nova v. Temple debate is constantly changing

Aristone
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby Aristone » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:39 am

OP - practicing attorney at a big firm in Philadelphia here. Let me clear up a few things from a hiring/non-anecdotal prospective:

1. Villanova, Temple and R-C are essentially the same school for hiring purposes. We don't particularly care where you go as long as you do well (read extremely well). The poster claiming Nova is in a different league is either a Nova student or misinformed. You will, of course, get interviewers that have their allegiances, but this is always (ALWAYS) trumped by grades or law review. Also don't be a mouth-breathing buffoon during your interviews. There are fluctuations for each school on any given year, but they're largely viewed as the same by Philadelphia attorneys and hiring committees.

2. Go to the cheapest. Be very careful of stipulations. I did not go to any of these schools, but when I applied to R-C my full ride was based on having a certain GPA. Apparently that GPA was at the 50% mark and, therefore, you have a 50% chance of keeping the full scholarship ("but I'm the smartest and will work the hardest blah blah blah"). I have heard that Nova has done the same (with the exception of the Public Interest scholars, but all of this may have changed with one school or both).

3. All things being equal, VISIT. They are all pretty different atmospheres (especially Nova v. Temple/R-C). Villanova's new building is quite amazing and the surroundings are pristine, but it is truly the suburbs. Housing options also reflect that unless you live in the city (Radnor House for the win at Villanova!!!). I have never visited Temple, so I will not comment...but I know that area of the city and it's probably similar to where R-C is located. R-C is located only two PATCO stops from the 8th and Market stop. Go, visit, talk to students and make that decision based on your preferences if all options are equal.

4. If after all of this, you can't decide. Flip a coin. Or go where your parents want you to go.

Side note: Entertainment/Sports Law is extremely difficult to get into and "international" law does not exist unless you somehow find yourself married to George Clooney or work for the Hague. Expect mid to small-law options from these schools. They're all decent regionals and place ok into those types of law firms. If you are truly looking for Entertainment or Sports Law positions, you must retake and get lucky during OCI.

If you have any specific questions, PM me. Good luck and God speed from a fellow Philadelphian.

NYGfan
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:40 pm

Ok, so after reading this thread over, doing my own research, and attending Temple Law day yesterday... I believe I have a clearer idea of what I would like to do. Also, I believe I miscommunicated my idea of the 3 local schools in my original post. First and foremost, if you are going to comment and say these schools aren't worth my time and I need to retake the LSAT, don't bother posting. I have spoken to attorneys practicing in the area (Duane Morris & Blank Rome) and they ALL say they believe these schools provide great opportunities in the Philly area (I tend to hear Temple leads the pack) in job placements.

I believe business/transactional law would be a great fit for me. Whether I am practicing corporate, contract, or another related field of law, I think this most fits my interests/skill set. To be clear, I am not interested in litigation but as I understand it, interests definitely change as a 1L. My goal is to work my ass off and be in that GPA range to be on law review and set myself up for OCIs (easier said than done, but I am up for the challenge).

Ideally, I want to be in the private sector. However, if I was to have any interest, I could see it being in law & public policy. Furthermore, in terms of jobs, I am open to big law, mid-sized, and small firms. I am not as educated as others on here, so I am going into school with an open mind in terms of jobs.

Having said that, between Temple, Villanova, and RU... Does one of these schools place more students in the private sector mid-sized firms (it seems that big law is hard to obtain from these schools) for biz/transaction law? Temple is really starting to push their business law program, teaching important skills (not just theory, for example, a 1-2 credit negotiation class), and focusing on clinics/externships to get their students experience before entering the field. I am trying not to drink the kool aid since this was my first admitted day and Villanova and RU may say very similar things. Yet, Temple seemed REALLY intent on strengthening their business law program and increasing their presence outside Philly (NYC/DC). It seems to be Temple/Nova have an equal alumni network in the local area.

For the record, to retain my scholarships, the conditions are: Villanova = 2.0 GPA, Temple 2.5 GPA, RU = 3.0

I am not thrilled with RU's condition -- who knows what will happen as a 1L. For that reason, my current order is Temple/Nova then RU. I would only be paying 6k a year to attend Temple (would live at home) which I am absolutely fine with considering its ranking.

I hope this post makes my interests MUCH clearer than my first. Thank you all for your help.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby The Dark Shepard » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:09 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... rs-camden/

Your chances of getting biglaw or "midlaw"(which is even harder to get than biglaw) from any of these schools is below 20%. At Villanova, you have only a coins flip chance of getting a legal job period, with the other two being 60%. I wouldn't recommend any of these employment numbers

And yes I expect you will "work hard to get in law review". The problem is that so will 90+% of the students in your class. You can't guarantee success at all. Retaking the LSAT for a higher score will be easier than getting top 10% in your class

If you absolutely insist on going to one of these anyways, make it Temple. Higher chance of getting a legal job than Villanova, while having a stipulation that should be be very hard to go under (experience: I am under a $$$ scholarship at a school with a 2.5 stipulation, where maybe one person a year loses it. Its essentially a safeguard against accidentally letting an idiot in with money I guess). If you do fall under 2.5, be prepared to drop out immediately. As it is, $18k + interest is not life-ruining debt should you fail.

Just realize your chances of your goals being met are extremely low from any of these schools.

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chuckbass
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby chuckbass » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:30 pm

Idk where people get this notion that your interests change as a 1L. Doctrinal classes have nothing to do with what actual lawyers do and this is the only thing you'll be focused on. Interests only change insofar as kids that come in wanting to do public interest and then get the grades for biglaw realize they'd rather get a job two years before graduation than scrambling for the next two years.

Fwiw go to Temple. It's not in a good area, so if you're going to live near campus try to live right on Broad Street or only a block or so east or west of it. There's a lot of crime, but it's less likely to happen the closer to broad street you are, and also if you live below Diamond Street.

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:18 pm

R-C's stip is not good. Ask them to match Temple's, and then decide. If they don't, I'd submit that they are helping you make your decision for you.

Aristone's post was excellent.

NYGfan
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:40 pm

Cardozo just upped their offer to $40,000/year if I stay in the top 80% (2.9 GPA) after i negotiated with them.

Now my NYC options are
Cardozo (40k/year): COA 20k+ per year (remainder of tuition and living expenses)
St. John's: full-tuition COA 10k per year (living)

Would Cardozo be a much better option than the three local Philly schools? As in, will this increase my chance for employment or will being in the shadow of NYU, Cornell, Columbia be too great to make a difference? I don't have many contacts but the ones I do have are in philly.

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chuckbass
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby chuckbass » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:50 pm

No go to a philly school. You'll at least save money with COL difference.

NYGfan
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:50 pm

Thanks everyone for your help.

What is the consensus on Seton Hall? I have a full-ride to attend and would just need to pay for living.

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:28 pm

Temple/'Nova/R-C still beat Cardozo for what you want, and they are probably more effective at Phila./South Jersey placement than Cardozo is at NYC placement, for the 'shadow' reasons you just alluded to.

As to both Seton and Cardozo: why make things more complicated for yourself by choosing schools up in this area if you want to open up pipelines to Phila and S. Jersey? Plus, Temple is a reasonably portable degree for NYC purposes should you ever want to migrate, and Rutgers/Nova get recognition too, whereas Cardozo/Seton is less commonly seen down in Philly. See also my comments in my first post about Seton.

rwhyAn
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby rwhyAn » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:02 pm

NYGfan wrote:Thanks everyone for your help.

What is the consensus on Seton Hall? I have a full-ride to attend and would just need to pay for living.


Seton Hall makes no sense. Cost of living in Northern NJ is expensive, and it's not good for Philly (plus there are allegations of section-stacking to force loss of scholarship). I'm as big a proponent of Rutgers as there is (work and go to school at R-N), but the 3.0 or top 50% stip is bad. I've met a few hard-working people who have ended up median or below, so you can never assume you'll do better. You have a full-ride to Nova (with a 2.0 stip), want to practice in or near Philly, and can commute from home. Why wouldn't you go there?

NYGfan
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:06 pm

rwhyAn: The consensus on here is that Temple>Villanova it seems.

However... Temple is NOT in a good area and not much of a building/campus.. Yet much higher ranking and USNews has ranked some of their programs fairly high. 50ish minute commute via train for me each way

Villanova would be more of a hike, closer to an hour by train/car. Nice area, great campus. A few lawyers (Blank Rome, Duane Morris) have told me they feel Villanova presents more of a chance for private-sector jobs...

Overall, the same message I have heard is that I am basically splitting straws between these three if I want to practice in Philly but each have their own pros/cons

rwhyAn
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby rwhyAn » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:21 pm

I don't know Philly, but the impression I get is that the difference between the schools is minimal. Rankings outside the top 14 really don't matter. Villanova will be cheaper for you, and it seems like you'd be more comfortable there. Having been there a few times, it really is a great area too. Temple and Nova should be the only two schools that are in play. Basically you have to ask yourself which one you like more.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby The Dark Shepard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:01 am

NYGfan wrote:rwhyAn: The consensus on here is that Temple>Villanova it seems.

However... Temple is NOT in a good area and not much of a building/campus.. Yet much higher ranking and USNews has ranked some of their programs fairly high. 50ish minute commute via train for me each way

Villanova would be more of a hike, closer to an hour by train/car. Nice area, great campus. A few lawyers (Blank Rome, Duane Morris) have told me they feel Villanova presents more of a chance for private-sector jobs...



The only thing you said in this post that matters is the commute, which could affect your grades.

The only thing that matters is placement power. LST has Temple doing much better in terms of employment.

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transferror
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby transferror » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:10 am

OP, I attend RU-C and currently work in Philly and Temple is the easy choice here. Less than 20k debt (pre-interest) is a steal. Temple's placement is better in Philly than Nova/Rutgers/Drexel for law firms generally (big, mid or small), even though the difference is marginal. It's still better and gives you options at, say top quarter, Temple that you wouldn't have at the others. Obviously this is still dependent upon being able to interview and such. PM me if interested in more info.

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DaRascal
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby DaRascal » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:19 am

Seton Hall is the best law school in NJ hands down. Rutgers-N and Rutgers-C aren't even in the discussion! This is LeBron vs. Steve Novak! :lol:

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:34 pm

So sayeth the good book, USNWR!! Do you carry around a little pocket version for quick reference!?




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