Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

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NYGfan
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Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:11 pm

I know this is a low level post compared to others debating Harvard vs. NYU, but I would like some advice all the same. Any and all is welcome as I am having a tough time making a decision.

Interests: Sports/Entertainment Law, Intellectual Property Law, International Law (These are flexible as I understand that many preconceived notions can change as a 1L which I am completely open to). NOT looking to do big law.

I live in the Philadelphia region and would like to stay in this area because this is where my family/friends/contacts reside. I would consider moving to NYC but is it worth it if I'm not interested in big law? My top 3 are:

1) Villanova: Best reputation out of the three but would be 50 minutes of a commute each way. Stiffer competition here.
2) Temple: Great trial advocacy program but at the moment, I am not interested in litigation and am very wary of North Philly, so Temple is on the outside looking in.
3) RU-Camden: Very easy commute, have a good friend that attends, could finish top 10-15% of class.

The main question for me is, do firms value top 10% of a decent school (RU) or being top 20-25% or higher at a more reputable and difficult school (Nova, Temple)?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

My school list is below:

PA: Villanova (Full-tuition), Temple (90% tuition), UPenn (Waiting, rare chance of admission)
NJ: RU-Camden & Seton Hall (Full-tuition)
NY: Fordham (Waiting but likely not going anyway), Cardozo ($30k/year but I am currently negotiating), Brooklyn ($36k/year but I rejected, St. John's (Full-tuition)
Others: GW (Accepted), Pepperdine ($30k/year but I rejected), BU (Waiting)

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:35 pm

Can you explain, specifically, what you mean by Sports/Entertainment Law, Intellectual Property Law, and International Law?

Can you also link to some non-big law firms that do the types of things you're talking about?

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:54 pm

Your case... Rutgers Camden, the 50 min commute will turn into much longer with traffic

EDIT: you need to edit your goals bc you are going to get ripped apart

nick417
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby nick417 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:11 pm

I go to one of these three schools, my experience is these three schools are about even. Rutgers places better in SJ (for obvious reasons) and Temple and Nova probably do a little better in Philadelphia (more alumnus). But if you are not looking for big law (which is difficult to get at any of these schools anyway) that kind of blows that up.

I would look at the cheapest school and convenience. You say it is a 50 min drive to Nova, that would be a pain to do everyday. Nearly 2 hours of your day is driving/commuting which will really eat up your time. Time is a valuable commodity in law school (especially 1 L year), wasting 2 hours to commute is not really efficient.

nick417
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby nick417 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:Can you explain, specifically, what you mean by Sports/Entertainment Law, Intellectual Property Law, and International Law?

Can you also link to some non-big law firms that do the types of things you're talking about?


Seriously, give the guy a break. Everyone goes to law school with interests in certain areas. He is looking for some good advice, not to be ridiculed.

By the way, I know a half dozen boutique IP firms in the Philadelphia area. IP work is certainly not an exclusive big law job. I know it is hard to conceive, but small businesses have trademarks, patents, and copyrights too.

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:32 pm

nick417 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Can you explain, specifically, what you mean by Sports/Entertainment Law, Intellectual Property Law, and International Law?

Can you also link to some non-big law firms that do the types of things you're talking about?


Seriously, give the guy a break. Everyone goes to law school with interests in certain areas. He is looking for some good advice, not to be ridiculed.

By the way, I know a half dozen boutique IP firms in the Philadelphia area. IP work is certainly not an exclusive big law job. I know it is hard to conceive, but small businesses have trademarks, patents, and copyrights too.

I wasn't ridiculing anyone. I'm trying to figure out what the OP is talking about and what he/she is specifically interested in so that I can give him/her the best advice I possibly can.

I'm really surprised you would respond that way, are you ok?

NYGfan
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby NYGfan » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:58 pm

Nick -- thanks for sticking up for me, it's my first time posting, and I'm not nearly as educated on this as everyone else. Hence why I posted for some advice.

BigZuck -- I'm not well-versed in the TLS forum, I'm new to this. How specific would you like me to get? I'm appreciative of your time.

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:06 pm

NYGfan wrote:Nick -- thanks for sticking up for me, it's my first time posting, and I'm not nearly as educated on this as everyone else. Hence why I posted for some advice.

BigZuck -- I'm not well-versed in the TLS forum, I'm new to this. How specific would you like me to get? I'm appreciative of your time.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether what you say you're interested in is something that
A. Exists
and
B. Is attainable

Do you have the technical background necessary to get an IP job?

Sports/entertainment and international are super broad and sound like marketing fluff, what specifically do you mean by those terms?

nick417
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby nick417 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:09 am

BigZuck wrote:
NYGfan wrote:Nick -- thanks for sticking up for me, it's my first time posting, and I'm not nearly as educated on this as everyone else. Hence why I posted for some advice.

BigZuck -- I'm not well-versed in the TLS forum, I'm new to this. How specific would you like me to get? I'm appreciative of your time.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether what you say you're interested in is something that
A. Exists
and
B. Is attainable

Do you have the technical background necessary to get an IP job?

Sports/entertainment and international are super broad and sound like marketing fluff, what specifically do you mean by those terms?


I think what Big Zuck is saying is go to law school with an open mind. Everyone comes into law school with certain interests, but after taking courses like Contracts, Torts, Property, etc., who knows what other subjects you would be interested in.

A friend of mine went to law school interested in only doing Sports Law (he wanted to be a sports agent). That was it, he had no interest in anything else. Well after a couple semesters of law school, he realized he liked business and corporate law and is doing a summer associate position at a corporate firm. Things change. I really enjoyed property and land use law (easements and all that jazz), who knew?

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:21 am

nick417 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
NYGfan wrote:Nick -- thanks for sticking up for me, it's my first time posting, and I'm not nearly as educated on this as everyone else. Hence why I posted for some advice.

BigZuck -- I'm not well-versed in the TLS forum, I'm new to this. How specific would you like me to get? I'm appreciative of your time.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether what you say you're interested in is something that
A. Exists
and
B. Is attainable

Do you have the technical background necessary to get an IP job?

Sports/entertainment and international are super broad and sound like marketing fluff, what specifically do you mean by those terms?


I think what Big Zuck is saying is go to law school with an open mind. Everyone comes into law school with certain interests, but after taking courses like Contracts, Torts, Property, etc., who knows what other subjects you would be interested in.

A friend of mine went to law school interested in only doing Sports Law (he wanted to be a sports agent). That was it, he had no interest in anything else. Well after a couple semesters of law school, he realized he liked business and corporate law and is doing a summer associate position at a corporate firm. Things change. I really enjoyed property and land use law (easements and all that jazz), who knew?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I meant literally what I said. These schools are pretty limited in terms of what opportunities they open up for people, I'm just trying to make sure the OP can get the job they want.

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:07 am

BigZuck wrote:
nick417 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
NYGfan wrote:Nick -- thanks for sticking up for me, it's my first time posting, and I'm not nearly as educated on this as everyone else. Hence why I posted for some advice.

BigZuck -- I'm not well-versed in the TLS forum, I'm new to this. How specific would you like me to get? I'm appreciative of your time.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether what you say you're interested in is something that
A. Exists
and
B. Is attainable

Do you have the technical background necessary to get an IP job?

Sports/entertainment and international are super broad and sound like marketing fluff, what specifically do you mean by those terms?


I think what Big Zuck is saying is go to law school with an open mind. Everyone comes into law school with certain interests, but after taking courses like Contracts, Torts, Property, etc., who knows what other subjects you would be interested in.

A friend of mine went to law school interested in only doing Sports Law (he wanted to be a sports agent). That was it, he had no interest in anything else. Well after a couple semesters of law school, he realized he liked business and corporate law and is doing a summer associate position at a corporate firm. Things change. I really enjoyed property and land use law (easements and all that jazz), who knew?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I meant literally what I said. These schools are pretty limited in terms of what opportunities they open up for people, I'm just trying to make sure the OP can get the job they want.


Unicorn jobs..... Retake or rutgers its that simple for you

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:45 am

Don't assume that you'll finish in any particular percentile. Also, make sure the jobs you want exist and are attainable from that school. International law or sports/entertainment are very unlikely from these schools

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:47 am

I'll come out and say it: sports law and international law are not real things. Unscrupulous schools use these as marketing buzzwords to attract 0Ls who don't have great understandings of legal markets, and it works.

Insofar as either exists, they exist at huge biglaw firms, and only students from top schools have any chance at breaking into either practice area.

IP exists largely at big firms, too, and entry into any IP practice typically requires a very specific technical degree, and I get the impression you don't have one of those degrees.

It doesnt sound like you have realistic goals or a strong idea of what your prospects will be at any of these schools. For that reason I am concerned to suggest going to law school this cycle. The range of outcomes at any of these schools is pretty narrow, and if you're not going to be happy with the average outcome, you shouldn't do it.

I have no idea why you say Villanova has a better reputation and "stiffer competition"? Temple has the best standing of Philly schools, is my understanding, but the student bodies will be essentially identical. Reputation is irrelevant though, these schools are all pretty much the same. Trial advocacy programs are not something to concern yourself with as a 0L. You also have no idea where you are going to finish at any school. Assume you will be a median student.

I don't really think you should go as you don't have realistic goals or a solid grasp of typical outcomes at these schools (and are assuming you will be a top student). But if you're going to go, just weigh personal preference and what's going to cost the least from nova, temple, and RU. Good luck.

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 pm

I disagree, OP, that Villanova has the best reputation and stiffest competition. Not sure where you are getting that from. On reputation and performance, Temple is first. Rutgers-Camden is second, and for them you should know (if you don't already) that, pending a June ABA ruling, they are going to be merged into a single entity with the R-Newark campus. Villanova sends mixed signs on reputation, but I don't think it is seen as stronger than Temple or better than a tossup with R-C.

Rule out Seton-- it is not what you want for your geography and the fact that you want to practice in Philly/area. Plus, what are their stips? They are known for being all kinds of shady with stips and assembling their 1L sections. Avoid. Also, they have ok Law School Transparency numbers compared to competition, but it's due to some nice pipelines to north jersey's mid-law (which also means mid-salary) and alumni state court judges. They have very limited pull outside those sectors (where they are in tremendous competition with Rutgers and NY Schools to begin with), i.e. in big law in Philly and NYC...you'll see in a minute. I won't even get into the NY schools you mentioned due to the same idea of limited geographic scope.

Review some of the below links. They are just food for thought, but I share them because your interests DO really warrant thinking about BigLaw. Even if you don't think you want that long term (that's fine), they offer some of the best first steps toward your goal. You usually can't just walk into a powerful boutique IP firm out of law school. You start at big law, work your way into their IP department, and then jump in your 3rd-5th year, or go do a clerkship to get recruiters' attention. So I submit that you should check Big Law placement for these schools. P.s., as to what employers want, for pretty much any of these schools they are looking for top 20%, pref top 10%, or law review. Those behind those strata, the majority, get scooped up by state court judges and then considered by firms/government during/after their clerkship.

% of Class of 2014 hired directly into Big Law:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... .html#more
Villanova (#34) and Temple (#35): 13%
Rutgers-N (#47): 10%
Rutgers-C (#85): 5%
Seton (#107): 3%

Big Law partners by law school (Temple and Villanova ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Seton isn't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

FWIW: US News Ranks by Peer Rep. score only (Temple solidly ahead, then the Rutgers, then Villanova and Seton following)
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... tion-.html

Even better than all of the above, keep an eye on Law School Transparency for their upcoming class of 2014 reports. You can count on Temple looking the best, then the Rutgers trailing behind, and the other two sending up mixed signals.

~~~~~

For what you want, and to open up the most doors, I'd say your decision is Temple (90%) v. R-C (full). Any stipulations at Temple? Being "wary" of a city/neighborhood, I add, is no reason to hold back. Time to get over that sort of thinking.

Let us know what you do.
Last edited by donewithannarbor on Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rwhyAn
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby rwhyAn » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:26 pm

OP, don't fool yourself that you'll be in the top 10-15%. Grading can be pretty random at times. What are the stips on RU-Camden? I think Villanova is good standing and Rutgers is 3.0 to maintain the scholarship. Temple is the best of the three, but only marginally so. If it were me, I'd do Nova because I think it's nicer than the other two (new law building and quiet neighborhood), and don't underestimate how much stress you'll save with the good-standing stip.

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 pm

Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:33 pm

rwhyAn wrote:OP, don't fool yourself that you'll be in the top 10-15%. Grading can be pretty random at times. What are the stips on RU-Camden? I think Villanova is good standing and Rutgers is 3.0 to maintain the scholarship. Temple is the best of the three, but only marginally so. If it were me, I'd do Nova because I think it's nicer than the other two (new law building and quiet neighborhood), and don't underestimate how much stress you'll save with the good-standing stip.


but OP would have at least a 2hr round trip commute per day

donewithannarbor
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby donewithannarbor » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:38 pm

Big correction, itascot, thanks.

I will edit my post to reflect that Villanova is ranked in that regard, and reserve my disparagement for Seton.

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:40 pm

donewithannarbor wrote:Big correction, itascot, thanks.

I will edit my post to reflect that Villanova is ranked in that regard, and reserve my disparagement for Seton.


FWIW widener is on that list too

rwhyAn
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby rwhyAn » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:55 pm

itascot1992 wrote:
rwhyAn wrote:OP, don't fool yourself that you'll be in the top 10-15%. Grading can be pretty random at times. What are the stips on RU-Camden? I think Villanova is good standing and Rutgers is 3.0 to maintain the scholarship. Temple is the best of the three, but only marginally so. If it were me, I'd do Nova because I think it's nicer than the other two (new law building and quiet neighborhood), and don't underestimate how much stress you'll save with the good-standing stip.


but OP would have at least a 2hr round trip commute per day


There's a train station less than 500 ft away from the Villanova law school. That would save him from hitting any traffic. Maybe it's not that big a deal to me because I used to have an hour-and-a-half commute each way to work, which I did for over three years; it's something that you get used to. That aside, if Temple and Camden have stips on their scholarships other than good standing, then Nova would be a no-brainer to me.

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:56 pm

rwhyAn wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:
rwhyAn wrote:OP, don't fool yourself that you'll be in the top 10-15%. Grading can be pretty random at times. What are the stips on RU-Camden? I think Villanova is good standing and Rutgers is 3.0 to maintain the scholarship. Temple is the best of the three, but only marginally so. If it were me, I'd do Nova because I think it's nicer than the other two (new law building and quiet neighborhood), and don't underestimate how much stress you'll save with the good-standing stip.


but OP would have at least a 2hr round trip commute per day


There's a train station less than 500 ft away from the Villanova law school. That would save him from hitting any traffic. Maybe it's not that big a deal to me because I used to have an hour-and-a-half commute each way to work, which I did for over three years; it's something that you get used to. That aside, if Temple and Camden have stips on their scholarships other than good standing, then Nova would be a no-brainer to me.


Temple's stip is usually 2.5, I can't speak for R-C

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:04 pm

id go whereever total cost of attendance is cheaper. you should be fine since it looks like you'll keep your debt low. but you should know sports law and international law really dont exist. IP law doesnt exist without a technical background from these schools.

not knocking the list of schools, just saying the areas of law you listed aren't likely to result from your inputs (or really anyones inputs without serious connections). if you'd be find doing transactional law like drafting wills and doing estate planning (since you said not interested in litigation) or real estate law starting at around $45k, then just go wherever is cheapest.

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:05 pm

itascot1992 wrote:Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

How is this list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?

itascot1992
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby itascot1992 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:07 pm

BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

How is this list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?


That is what i was saying when i said "FWIW widener is also on this list"

BigZuck
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Re: Villanova/Temple/Rutgers Advice??

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:10 pm

itascot1992 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
itascot1992 wrote:Big Law partners by law school (Temple ranks nicely; the Rutgers are on the map; Villanova and Seton aren't even listed (to put that in perspective, even Pace got on this list):
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... kings.html

Villanova is HIGHER than temple on that list

How is this list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?


That is what i was saying when i said "FWIW widener is also on this list"

Ah, I see, Ann was the one who originally posted it and you were responding to it

Ann- How is that list meaningful in any way, shape, or form?




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