TLS, it's time to have a talk.

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brianiac
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TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:16 pm

I'm writing this post today because I am deeply concerned about the advice that certain posters are giving on this forum. The "T14 or bust" mentality is carelessly perpetuated, even though many of us have no interest in biglaw. For example, I am going into politics and will attend a school with excellent placement in that realm. People who are looking to work in a public defender's or prosecutor's office should attend the school most regional to them. Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2. The same goes for those opening up their own practice. What do all of these have in common? They don't require T14.

Law school is not a one size fits all formula. And yet many of you are treating it like that. Now there are some posters who have not fallen into this fallacy. Johann, Dawkins, LordRandolph, to name but a few. These posters understand that there are, in fact, schools worth attending outside of the T14, a reality that many of you who have hustled their entire life to get into this "top echelon" don't want to admit to yourselves. But it's time for the board as a whole to start looking at the big picture.

The next time you tell a student they have to attend a T14 school, stop and think for a moment. Are you leading people on the path that is right for them, or are you leading them astray? A wise man once said: "We can't help everyone, but everyone can help someone."

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Hand
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Hand » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:18 pm

I recommend you contribute to the PW thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=240923

FSK
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby FSK » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:22 pm

Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2


We know that is statistically false. Many of these schools have sub 50% 9 moth employment scores.

This is either trolling, or you don't read the actual advice given here.

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:24 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:
Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2


We know that is statistically false. Many of these schools have sub 50% 9 moth employment scores.

This is either trolling, or you don't read the actual advice given here.

Why are you so obsessed with 9 months. We have data on long-term outcomes, do we not?

1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU
15 California
16 Vandy
17 Illinois
18 BU
19 BC
20 Notre Dame

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:24 pm

hereisonehand wrote:I recommend you contribute to the PW thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0&t=240923

I'll check it out later, thanks.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:25 pm

If you want to get into politics go work on a political campaign, work as a community organizer, you know... do politics. Or, alternatively, spend a few years in the military and then go to law school on the GI Bill. Don't take out debt to go to law school, especially because most political work is NOT PSLF eligible. So really, let's have a talk. Unless you're going to school for $0, your life plan is objectively bad given your specific goals. Is that advice tailored enough for you?

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middlebear
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby middlebear » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:27 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:you don't read the actual advice given here.


Bro, you're clearly not actually reading the forum. Most people are pretty explicit that there are a lot of scenarios in which a T-14 doesn't make sense. If I remember you right, you're just pissed we're not all falling to our knees b/c you're going to GW.

ETA: also, that list above is of Big Law partners, yes?
Last edited by middlebear on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:27 pm

brianiac wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:
Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2


We know that is statistically false. Many of these schools have sub 50% 9 moth employment scores.

This is either trolling, or you don't read the actual advice given here.

Why are you so obsessed with 9 months. We have data on long-term outcomes, do we not?

1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU
15 California
16 Vandy
17 Illinois
18 BU
19 BC
20 Notre Dame


We do not. Every single partner measured by those lists went to law school pre-recession. There has been a permanent shift in the structure of the legal market since then.

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MistakenGenius
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Post removed.

Postby MistakenGenius » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:28 pm

Post removed.
Last edited by MistakenGenius on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Skool
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Skool » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:29 pm

brianiac wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:
Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2


We know that is statistically false. Many of these schools have sub 50% 9 moth employment scores.

This is either trolling, or you don't read the actual advice given here.

Why are you so obsessed with 9 months. We have data on long-term outcomes, do we not?

1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU
15 California
16 Vandy
17 Illinois
18 BU
19 BC
20 Notre Dame
What long term data is there? Is this the Partner at a Biglaw firm by school rankings? That's hardly long term data.

Long term data has long been an important missing data point in the law school cost/benefit analysis. The only long term data I've seen recently is the Biglaw Partner stuff and Deobrah Merritt's stuff on 2010 law graduates.

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:30 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:If you want to get into politics go work on a political campaign, work as a community organizer, you know... do politics. Or, alternatively, spend a few years in the military and then go to law school on the GI Bill. Don't take out debt to go to law school, especially because most political work is NOT PSLF eligible. So really, let's have a talk. Unless you're going to school for $0, your life plan is objectively bad given your specific goals. Is that advice tailored enough for you?

Haha, no I am not going to go off and be a 'community organizer'. I think we've all seen how that works out.

No interest in military, though I salute those who have the courage to serve, and strongly support the GI Bill.

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smaug
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby smaug » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:30 pm

lol

FSK
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby FSK » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:31 pm

brianiac wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:
Those who want to work in the private sector but don't want to sell their soul and do 110+ hour (on average) weeks in the office can find non-biglaw jobs in any of the Tier 1, and in most of the Tier 2


We know that is statistically false. Many of these schools have sub 50% 9 moth employment scores.

This is either trolling, or you don't read the actual advice given here.

Why are you so obsessed with 9 months. We have data on long-term outcomes, do we not?

1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU
15 California
16 Vandy
17 Illinois
18 BU
19 BC
20 Notre Dame



Who the hell actually wants to be a partner? You must be a daft sociopath to believe this shtick.

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:31 pm

middlebear wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:you don't read the actual advice given here.


Bro, you're clearly not actually reading the forum. Most people are pretty explicit that there are a lot of scenarios in which a T-14 doesn't make sense. If I remember you right, you're just pissed we're not all falling to our knees b/c you're going to GW.

ETA: also, that list above is of Big Law partners, yes?

This has nothing to do with me. This thread is about you guys. So let's get back on topic okay.

Yes the list is long term job outcomes by school.

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smaug
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby smaug » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:32 pm

Give us your 20 year plan, Mr. Brain.

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Skool
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Skool » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:35 pm

This is turning into a feeding frenzy. Maybe we should all try and be polite in engaging OP. Clearly he's a little misguided but ganging up on him might not be helpful.

OP, you should spend more time in the advice forums. People are regularly encouraged to choose excellent financial aid packages from non T-14 schools all the time.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:37 pm

Skool wrote:This is turning into a feeding frenzy. Maybe we should all try and be polite in engaging OP. Clearly he's a little misguided but ganging up on him might not be helpful.


What's there to say? TLS gives tailored advice all the time.

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:37 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:We do not. Every single partner measured by those lists went to law school pre-recession. There has been a permanent shift in the structure of the legal market since then.

Yes, there was something called the recession. The recession ended and legal jobs are returning. If you don't believe me, go visit Law School Transparency and compare jobs in 2011 to jobs in 2013. Then come back here and tell me how "permanent" this supposed shift was.

MistakenGenius wrote:I thought he was troll to begin with, but now I think he's just an idiot. Braniac, I'm sorry, where are my manners, Mr. Senator, have fun going to George Washington for sticker.

What, are you sore you didn't get in? :lol:

Skool wrote:What long term data is there? Is this the Partner at a Biglaw firm by school rankings? That's hardly long term data.

Long term data has long been an important missing data point in the law school cost/benefit analysis. The only long term data I've seen recently is the Biglaw Partner stuff and Deobrah Merritt's stuff on 2010 law graduates.

This is the best info available to us. I choose to use information that I have at hand rather than throw it in the garbage because it's not perfect.

flawschoolkid wrote:Who the hell actually wants to be a partner? You must be a daft sociopath to believe this shtick.

I agree. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you're not pursuing your passion you might as well jump in front of the train because what is the point.

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smaug
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby smaug » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:39 pm

This dude is the best troll we've had in a while. Take notes, folks. Take notes.

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Hand
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Hand » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:39 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
Skool wrote:This is turning into a feeding frenzy. Maybe we should all try and be polite in engaging OP. Clearly he's a little misguided but ganging up on him might not be helpful.


What's there to say? TLS gives tailored advice all the time.


yeah OP is pretty much summing up the sort of advice you'll get here, except for the part where he leaves out that one should require increasingly steep tuition discounts before it is reasonable to attend schools further down the food chain, but that omission is of course just what you should expect from someone who wants others to validate the decision to go to GWU at sticker

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Hand
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Hand » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:39 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:This dude is the best troll we've had in a while. Take notes, folks. Take notes.


I do love that going into politics twist I must say

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Skool
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby Skool » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:40 pm

brianiac wrote:
Skool wrote:What long term data is there? Is this the Partner at a Biglaw firm by school rankings? That's hardly long term data.

Long term data has long been an important missing data point in the law school cost/benefit analysis. The only long term data I've seen recently is the Biglaw Partner stuff and Deobrah Merritt's stuff on 2010 law graduates.

This is the best info available to us. I choose to use information that I have at hand rather than throw it in the garbage because it's not perfect.


Sure, it's not perfect, but you're not going to make life altering financial decisions based on information that isn't really helpful, right?

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BrazilBandit
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby BrazilBandit » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:41 pm

brianiac wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:We do not. Every single partner measured by those lists went to law school pre-recession. There has been a permanent shift in the structure of the legal market since then.

Yes, there was something called the recession. The recession ended and legal jobs are returning. If you don't believe me, go visit Law School Transparency and compare jobs in 2011 to jobs in 2013. Then come back here and tell me how "permanent" this supposed shift was.

MistakenGenius wrote:I thought he was troll to begin with, but now I think he's just an idiot. Braniac, I'm sorry, where are my manners, Mr. Senator, have fun going to George Washington for sticker.

What, are you sore you didn't get in? :lol:

Skool wrote:What long term data is there? Is this the Partner at a Biglaw firm by school rankings? That's hardly long term data.

Long term data has long been an important missing data point in the law school cost/benefit analysis. The only long term data I've seen recently is the Biglaw Partner stuff and Deobrah Merritt's stuff on 2010 law graduates.

This is the best info available to us. I choose to use information that I have at hand rather than throw it in the garbage because it's not perfect.

flawschoolkid wrote:Who the hell actually wants to be a partner? You must be a daft sociopath to believe this shtick.

I agree. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you're not pursuing your passion you might as well jump in front of the train because what is the point.


MistakenGenius is a Yale admit...

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UnicornHunter
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:43 pm

OP: please address how you plan to do politics when PSLF won't cover you,

brianiac
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Re: TLS, it's time to have a talk.

Postby brianiac » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:44 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:Give us your 20 year plan, Mr. Brain.

This thread isn't about me, it's about you guys.

But as I have already explained before in other threads, my plan is to attend a law school in D.C. and begin building my network. Possibly a transfer to Georgetown but I'm not going to get ahead of myself. The dream is to be a Senator, but I'm aware that is a highly highly unlikely scenario. So I will return to my home state and start a practice, and lay the groundwork for a run for the State Senate. After that, a run for the House. That's why I'm going to school in D.C. even though I could have attended several T14s. I want to have contacts ready to go for when I return to D.C.

Skool wrote:This is turning into a feeding frenzy. Maybe we should all try and be polite in engaging OP. Clearly he's a little misguided but ganging up on him might not be helpful.

OP, you should spend more time in the advice forums. People are regularly encouraged to choose excellent financial aid packages from non T-14 schools all the time.

You can't take one or two outliers like Johann or Dawkins and use that to defeat my argument that posters, as a whole, are T14 or bust here, which is a fact.

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
Skool wrote:This is turning into a feeding frenzy. Maybe we should all try and be polite in engaging OP. Clearly he's a little misguided but ganging up on him might not be helpful.


What's there to say? TLS gives tailored advice all the time.

Um, giving different variations on "T14 or bust" is not "tailored advice" I'm sorry to break that to you.




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