BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

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Informative
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BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Informative » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:25 pm

The New York Times has a decent article on a recent study about the relationship between partnership prospectus and the law school attended.

The Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/busin ... finds.html

The Study Itself: Does Law School Still Make Economic Sense?: An Empirical Analysis of “Big” Law Firm Partnership Prospects and the Relationship to Law School Attended is available at http://taxprof.typepad.com/files/adams- ... ummary.pdf

For those interested, below is the rankings they produced:
1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU
15 California
16 Vandy
17 Illinois
18 BU
19 BC
20 Notre Dame

These rankings seem to correlate pretty well with the general sentiment on TLS about the schools that place well in Big Law generally out of law school, so I don't think there are any shockers. Still found it interesting.

brianiac
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby brianiac » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:42 pm

Informative wrote:1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU

This is crucial because it looks at long term prospects which is more informative than 9 month rankings. This is the real T14, as least for people wanting biglaw, not US News which factors in many irrelevant factors like how big the library is.

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Cobretti
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Cobretti » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:51 pm

brianiac wrote:
Informative wrote:1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU

This is crucial because it looks at long term prospects which is more informative than 9 month rankings. This is the real T14, as least for people wanting biglaw, not US News which factors in many irrelevant factors like how big the library is.

We get it, you're going to GWU and will be POTUS.

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MichiganMan
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby MichiganMan » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:53 pm

I think Brianiac really wants to distinguish how GWU makes the T14 cutoff on this list for some reason...

But why though?

Informative
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Informative » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:08 pm

GW's performance was interesting, particularly at such a high level.

All of the top California schools seemed to take a hit in this study. Cal, USC and UCLA all seemed to underperform, while Fordham, Illinois, BC, BU and GW seemed to overperform relative to their USNWR ranking. Outside of the top 25, Catholic, Loyola Chi, Hofstra and Nova all seemed to overperform relative to their USNWR rankings as well.

Alabama significantly underperformed as did Arizona state, BYU and FSU.

lapolicia
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby lapolicia » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:16 pm

In addition to the East Coast/PI biases, aren't these really the rankings as they were in the 1990s/early 2000s when most of these partners initially began their careers? I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that school still matters significantly once you're already at a firm for partnership prospects.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:51 pm

Not to be too brainiac-esque, but Woo GULC!

GULC: Clinging desperately to the bottom of the t14's shoe

BigZuck
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:04 pm

Surprised UT isn't on there what with large class sizes and "ruling Texas" and whatnot

(starts sobbing)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:11 pm

Informative wrote:GW's performance was interesting, particularly at such a high level.

All of the top California schools seemed to take a hit in this study. Cal, USC and UCLA all seemed to underperform, while Fordham, Illinois, BC, BU and GW seemed to overperform relative to their USNWR ranking. Outside of the top 25, Catholic, Loyola Chi, Hofstra and Nova all seemed to overperform relative to their USNWR rankings as well.

Alabama significantly underperformed as did Arizona state, BYU and FSU.

That seems to follow the east coast bias of the top 100 firms.

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Cobretti
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Cobretti » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:19 pm

BigZuck wrote:Surprised UT isn't on there what with large class sizes and "ruling Texas" and whatnot

(starts sobbing)

FWIW UT was 21

The executive summary for the paper linked in OP actually has a list out to 100.

dabigchina
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby dabigchina » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:20 pm

It might be different for law, but from what I've seen from my profession, the people from crappy schools tend to have as good or better work ethics than people from elite schools (probably because they had to hustle hard in school to get a job in the first place). Out of all the partners in my office, there are maybe 3/15 from elite schools. This might account for why some schools have more partners than you would expect looking at their usnews rankings.

Granted, my profession is nowhere near as preftige obsessed as law.

BigZuck
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:21 pm

Cobretti wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Surprised UT isn't on there what with large class sizes and "ruling Texas" and whatnot

(starts sobbing)

FWIW UT was 21

The executive summary for the paper linked in OP actually has a list out to 100.

I don't trust any ranking that doesn't have UT solidly positioned in the T15 so I'm just gonna pretend this thread never happened

UofCforme
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby UofCforme » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:48 pm

BigZuck wrote:Surprised UT isn't on there what with large class sizes and "ruling Texas" and whatnot

(starts sobbing)


My (admittedly limited) experience is that there are a LOT of partners in Houston who attended T6 schools. I guess it helps you stand out when ~1/3 or whatever of your entering class went to UT

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:55 pm

dabigchina wrote:It might be different for law, but from what I've seen from my profession, the people from crappy schools tend to have as good or better work ethics than people from elite schools (probably because they had to hustle hard in school to get a job in the first place). Out of all the partners in my office, there are maybe 3/15 from elite schools. This might account for why some schools have more partners than you would expect looking at their usnews rankings.

Granted, my profession is nowhere near as preftige obsessed as law.

This is definitely true in law. There are plenty of studies showing the proportion of partners/people who make biglaw is much higher from TTTs. The problem is you have to get there in the first place and unfortunately 0L's looking for any reason to attend their TTT and not retake the LSAT will seize on these studies.

Informative
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Informative » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:12 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
dabigchina wrote:It might be different for law, but from what I've seen from my profession, the people from crappy schools tend to have as good or better work ethics than people from elite schools (probably because they had to hustle hard in school to get a job in the first place). Out of all the partners in my office, there are maybe 3/15 from elite schools. This might account for why some schools have more partners than you would expect looking at their usnews rankings.

Granted, my profession is nowhere near as preftige obsessed as law.

This is definitely true in law. There are plenty of studies showing the proportion of partners/people who make biglaw is much higher from TTTs. The problem is you have to get there in the first place and unfortunately 0L's looking for any reason to attend their TTT and not retake the LSAT will seize on these studies.


The study still reinforces that you should go to a T14 school. However, it also shows that there are a few schools outside of the T14 that seem to perform better than their similarly ranked counterparts, and those schools are typically in major markets (GW, BC, BU, Illinois and Notre Dame).

I don't think anyone can rely on this study to say that one can attend a TTT and make BigLaw. Your chances of making BigLaw outside of the top 20-25 schools on this list are still slim.

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jbagelboy
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:32 pm

brianiac wrote:
Informative wrote:1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU

This is crucial because it looks at long term prospects which is more informative than 9 month rankings. This is the real T14, as least for people wanting biglaw, not US News which factors in many irrelevant factors like how big the library is.


stop trying to make GW happen

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Clemenceau
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Clemenceau » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:50 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
brianiac wrote:
Informative wrote:1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU

This is crucial because it looks at long term prospects which is more informative than 9 month rankings. This is the real T14, as least for people wanting biglaw, not US News which factors in many irrelevant factors like how big the library is.


stop trying to make GW happen

Chill. He's done his homework on this

brianiac wrote:I'm going into politics and have done my homework on this. If you want to go into politics there are only three routes: you can go to the top schools Harvard and Yale, you can go to runner ups Stanford and Columbia, or you can go to the DC powerhouses Georgetown and GW.

dabigchina
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby dabigchina » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:29 pm

BigZuck wrote:T15


still not a thing
Last edited by dabigchina on Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:31 pm

dabigchina wrote:
BigZuck wrote:T15


still not a thing

(starts sobbing)

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gilessanderson
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby gilessanderson » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:50 pm

brianiac you get off that GW waitlist yet?

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FSK
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby FSK » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:03 pm

Clemenceau wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
brianiac wrote:
Informative wrote:1 Chicago
2 Harvard
3 Yale
4 Columbia
5 Northwestern
6 UVA
7 Penn
8 NYU
9 Stanford
10 Michigan
11 Duke
12 Cornell
13 GULC
14 GWU

This is crucial because it looks at long term prospects which is more informative than 9 month rankings. This is the real T14, as least for people wanting biglaw, not US News which factors in many irrelevant factors like how big the library is.


stop trying to make GW happen

Chill. He's done his homework on this

brianiac wrote:I'm going into politics and have done my homework on this. If you want to go into politics there are only three routes: you can go to the top schools Harvard and Yale, you can go to runner ups Stanford and Columbia, or you can go to the DC powerhouses Georgetown and GW.


If by powerhouse you mean a dollhouse attached to a potato.

bl1nds1ght
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby bl1nds1ght » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:10 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:If by powerhouse you mean a dollhouse attached to a potato.

lol

Informative
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Informative » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:17 am

Has anyone compared these rankings with the rankings of the "Go To law Schools" rankings that NLJ puts out for BigLaw placement out of law school?

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downinDtown
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby downinDtown » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:02 am

Informative wrote:The study still reinforces that you should go to a T14 school. However, it also shows that there are a few schools outside of the T14 that seem to perform better than their similarly ranked counterparts, and those schools are typically in major markets (GW, BC, BU, Illinois and Notre Dame).
The booming metropolises of South Bend, Indiana and Urbana-Champaign, Illinois thank you for your kind characterization.

I'm just kidding (and I get your point), but I think it is underrated just how well certain law schools, including some of the ones you listed, place into large metro areas. It can make the job hunt that much easier when a school has a stellar reputation in and a well-established pipeline to certain markets and certain firms.

This just highlights in my mind how unique of a setup UT has. It "owns" Austin, places very well in Dallas (well ahead of SMU), even better in Houston (far ahead of UH), and Texas markets don't have nearly as many candidates from T14 schools as other major markets (NYC, LA, Chicago, SF, Philly, and DC) trying to come get a jerb there. Comparatively, Notre Dame and UIUC probably are at best the 4th largest feeders to Chicago behind Chicago, Northwestern, Michigan. Then you have the next wave of students from WUSTL, Iowa, Wisconisin, Minnesota, et al.

Does that make you feel any better, BZ?

Informative
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Re: BigLaw Proximity Matters Study

Postby Informative » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:17 am

Yeah, I think ND and Illinois did well because of their placement in Chicago. Admittedly, you'll have a better time in Boston from BC/BU or in DC from GW.

UT certainly has a great set up for Texas biglaw if that is something that interests you. You can't go wrong with UT for Texas employment.




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