Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

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CCD2016
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Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby CCD2016 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:33 pm

I'm not applying to law school until the fall, but I was wanting to get everyone's take on these schools.

Personal information:
GPA=3.59
LSAT= Pre-Testing 165-167 average

Relevant considerations:
Location---- Not SUPER important to me, I would enjoy living in the midwest although Colorado and the mountain west is where I'm from and where my heart is.

Law school interest---- Criminal law, mainly, specifically defense. Government/PI has also been a pretty strong interest.

Schools:
Iowa---- They have tremendous employment rates, a fantastic library, clinic and law review. This school almost feels too good to be true. I recently toured the school and thought it was amazing. Is there anyone who could provide incite about this school that may not be obvious after visiting/doing some research.

Colorado---- My home state. Employment rates are *fairly* strong, etc. Anything particularly interesting to know about this school?

Illinois and Minnesota---- My dark horse schools. I'm basically just wanting to gather any information I can about the schools and anything any applicant should know.

BigZuck
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:37 pm

Thread is pointless without real options, let alone an LSAT score

Don't bother applying to Iowa, Illinois, or Minnesota unless it's for scholarship negotiation purposes. Colorado for cheap seems fine for those goals.

Is "Iowa has a great law library" a new meme I don't know about? Some sort of coded message?

donewithannarbor
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby donewithannarbor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:57 pm

Will location be more important a few years after graduation? These are each regional schools and to the extent they (and I mostly mean UMinn and Iowa) ship people elsewhere it's generally those in the top 15% that seek out big law in big cities, particularly Chi and NYC. So don't plan on going to, say, Illinois when your ultimate goal is having a desirable job in Colorado, or vice-versa.

That said, if your plan is to let the best law school deal you're offered set your course for career and location, that's cool, just get back to us when you have an LSAT score, as Zuck suggests, and again when you hopefully get scholarship deals.

If you want a knee-jerk take on perceptions, I think most people look at Minn/Iowa/Illinois as slightly higher echelon state schools than Colorado. But if your ambitions are localized (i.e. you want to go to school and then practice in Colorado), what I just said hardly makes a difference.

Wingtip88
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Wingtip88 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:18 pm

UIUC is only a good choice for Illinoisans who will have minimal debt at repayment, have modest career goals and arent strictly set on working in Chicago.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby The Dark Shepard » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:25 pm

Don't go to any of these schools with the expectation you'll be able to leave the state (except possibly to neighboring states)

That being said, I've found that people from both Minnesota and Colorado have enjoyed living in the other state just as much as their home state. (Anecdotal I know). Illinois and Iowa are shitholes, so unless you want to end up in Chicago (in which case, UIUC on a full ride isn't the worst possible idea), I'd ignore those (except to apply for scholarship negotiation purposes).

If your heart is truly in Colorado, though, you should probably focusing on getting there with a full ride.

Wingtip88
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Wingtip88 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:17 am

The Dark Shepard wrote:Illinois and Iowa are shitholes


Accurate.
Last edited by Wingtip88 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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middlebear
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby middlebear » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:57 am

Re CU, it's the place to be if you want to stay in Colorado. Alternatively, DU with $$$$.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby zombie mcavoy » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:48 am

CCD2016 wrote:Iowa---- They have tremendous employment rates, a fantastic library, clinic and law review. This school almost feels too good to be true. I recently toured the school and thought it was amazing. Is there anyone who could provide incite about this school that may not be obvious after visiting/doing some research.

Jesus fuck. This shit makes me want to self immolate.

Not your fault OP; iowa has apparently upped their marketing game because you're the third 0L to say this same basic thing this week. Iowa is an OK school if and only if you are from/have ties to Iowa, have a full ride, and intend to practice for a very long time in Iowa (otherwise, it is shit, pure shit).

Also, just so you don't do this when not anonymous: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/insight.html

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DaRascal
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby DaRascal » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:52 am

Iowa closed the gap with Minnesota in the latest USNWR rankings. 8)

Informative
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Informative » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:58 am

You also won't get great advice on here if you aren't interested in Biglaw. If you want to do Crim work, go the cheapest route you can find.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby The Dark Shepard » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:33 pm

Informative wrote:If you want to do Crim work, go the cheapest route you can find in the area you wish to practice


Just wanted to throw this fix in there. Hard to hustle for a PD/DA job if you aren't in the area..

Informative
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Informative » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:29 pm

The Dark Shepard wrote:
Informative wrote:If you want to do Crim work, go the cheapest route you can find in the area you wish to practice


Just wanted to throw this fix in there. Hard to hustle for a PD/DA job if you aren't in the area..


I agree with this change.

bl1nds1ght
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:00 pm

Wingtip88 wrote:
The Dark Shepard wrote:Illinois and Iowa are shitholes


Accurate.

Ex-Seattleite here (grew up there). Des Moines is pretty sweet. I never thought I'd say it, but I love the Midwest. Maybe Stockholm Syndrome? I will never get over the city skywalk system. Also, the Twin Cities feel like a Midwestern Seattle in the summertime.

If I had to pick an actual shithole, I'd say it's definitely most of SC/GA/FL, having lived there, too.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the convo.

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minnbills
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby minnbills » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:05 pm

DaRascal wrote:Iowa closed the gap with Minnesota in the latest USNWR rankings. 8)


lol

bl1nds1ght
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:13 pm

minnbills wrote:
DaRascal wrote:Iowa closed the gap with Minnesota in the latest USNWR rankings. 8)


lol

The employment stats between Iowa and MN are virtually identical, with Iowa at better overall bar-required employment (77% to 69%) and slightly better BL+FC (20.5% to 17%). They're pretty much the exact same school.

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DaRascal
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby DaRascal » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:28 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:The employment stats between Iowa and MN are virtually identical, with Iowa at better overall bar-required employment (77% to 69%) and slightly better BL+FC (20.5% to 17%). They're pretty much the exact same school.


That was beautiful. :cry:

It's only a matter of time before Iowa joins USC and UMN in the T20 range.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:57 am

If you want Colorado PD, apply to CU, DU, Wyoming, and maybe Utah. Spend summers volunteering for PD. Do all the crim law classes. Also have a back up plan because I've heard PD hiring can come down to whether the head honcho (Doug Wilson) woke up on the right side of the bed the day he met you.

bl1nds1ght
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby bl1nds1ght » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:40 am

DaRascal wrote:
bl1nds1ght wrote:The employment stats between Iowa and MN are virtually identical, with Iowa at better overall bar-required employment (77% to 69%) and slightly better BL+FC (20.5% to 17%). They're pretty much the exact same school.


That was beautiful. :cry:

It's only a matter of time before Iowa joins USC and UMN in the T20 range.

Hah, I don't know about that. Personally, I think that MN should be kicked out of the T20 and tied with Iowa somewhere in the low 20s where Iowa's ranked right now. They're good schools and Iowa has a great bar-required stat at 77% and a great FC stat at ~6.5% compared to its peers. Iowa would need to ramp up its BL placement if it wants to crack the T20, imo. It just isn't there and I'm not sure that it ever will be considering its geographic limitations.

It's great for what it does, which is placing in the Midwest.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:
DaRascal wrote:
bl1nds1ght wrote:The employment stats between Iowa and MN are virtually identical, with Iowa at better overall bar-required employment (77% to 69%) and slightly better BL+FC (20.5% to 17%). They're pretty much the exact same school.


That was beautiful. :cry:

It's only a matter of time before Iowa joins USC and UMN in the T20 range.

Hah, I don't know about that. Personally, I think that MN should be kicked out of the T20 and tied with Iowa somewhere in the low 20s where Iowa's ranked right now. They're good schools and Iowa has a great bar-required stat at 77% and a great FC stat at ~6.5% compared to its peers. Iowa would need to ramp up its BL placement if it wants to crack the T20, imo. It just isn't there and I'm not sure that it ever will be considering its geographic limitations.

It's great for what it does, which is placing in the Midwest.


I sometimes wonder how far in the minority I am when it comes to my view here...

I don't think there is an important difference between any of these schools. I would throw in schools like U of Wyoming or U of Nebraska and call them all peers. Who cares where they are ranked in the USNEWS magazine.

For example, I believe that if the entire Iowa Class of 2013 had been swapped with the entire Drake Class of 2013, that the employment stats would almost exactly swap. Meaning Drake would have the 77% employment score or whatever the heck you said. I believe students get jobs, not schools. Iowa attracts smarter and harder working students, but if one such student decided to go to Drake instead of Iowa, that student would have nearly the identical chance of employment from Drake that he would have had from Iowa.

I'm not saying people are not conscious of prestige in the legal field, but outside the top 15 or so schools, legal hiring is not based on prestige. (Even within the top schools, many people get hired by an alum of their school). I would welcome an opposing view here and perhaps my perspective could shift, but I would ask the group whether or not any of these distinctions would exist for schools between 20-150 without USNEWS decision to rank more than 20 law schools back in the late 90s...? Had they stopped at 20, would the majority of people on this site agree that U of Illinois is better than U of Nebraska?

bl1nds1ght
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby bl1nds1ght » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:38 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bl1nds1ght wrote:
DaRascal wrote:
bl1nds1ght wrote:The employment stats between Iowa and MN are virtually identical, with Iowa at better overall bar-required employment (77% to 69%) and slightly better BL+FC (20.5% to 17%). They're pretty much the exact same school.


That was beautiful. :cry:

It's only a matter of time before Iowa joins USC and UMN in the T20 range.

Hah, I don't know about that. Personally, I think that MN should be kicked out of the T20 and tied with Iowa somewhere in the low 20s where Iowa's ranked right now. They're good schools and Iowa has a great bar-required stat at 77% and a great FC stat at ~6.5% compared to its peers. Iowa would need to ramp up its BL placement if it wants to crack the T20, imo. It just isn't there and I'm not sure that it ever will be considering its geographic limitations.

It's great for what it does, which is placing in the Midwest.


I sometimes wonder how far in the minority I am when it comes to my view here...

I don't think there is an important difference between any of these schools. I would throw in schools like U of Wyoming or U of Nebraska and call them all peers. Who cares where they are ranked in the USNEWS magazine.

For example, I believe that if the entire Iowa Class of 2013 had been swapped with the entire Drake Class of 2013, that the employment stats would almost exactly swap. Meaning Drake would have the 77% employment score or whatever the heck you said. I believe students get jobs, not schools. Iowa attracts smarter and harder working students, but if one such student decided to go to Drake instead of Iowa, that student would have nearly the identical chance of employment from Drake that he would have had from Iowa.

I'm not saying people are not conscious of prestige in the legal field, but outside the top 15 or so schools, legal hiring is not based on prestige. (Even within the top schools, many people get hired by an alum of their school). I would welcome an opposing view here and perhaps my perspective could shift, but I would ask the group whether or not any of these distinctions would exist for schools between 20-150 without USNEWS decision to rank more than 20 law schools back in the late 90s...? Had they stopped at 20, would the majority of people on this site agree that U of Illinois is better than U of Nebraska?

I agree with you, for the most part. I even said in my earlier comment that MN and Iowa are virtually identical if you just look at employment stats, which implies that the USNWR is pretty meaningless if one is in the T20 and the other isn't. It's also true that Iowa, MN, Illinois, Nebraska, and Wisconsin are all very similar.

As for who cares about the USNWR, uninformed 0Ls care. Unfortunately, that demographic gleans abstract and vague conclusions about various schools that can't/shouldn't be drawn using that metric. Also, they're kind of fun to follow, even if they are pointless for all of us here.

Regarding the "I believe students get jobs, not schools." Are you really saying that Drake grads aren't scoring biglaw at the same rate (~1%) that Iowa grads are (~15%) because they're not dedicated enough? Are you saying that they aren't getting federal clerkships at the same rate for the same reason? It's pretty obvious that the schools, either because of reputation or a history of strong placement, are the driving catalyst behind graduate success. Sure, there are cinderella stories of TTT grads going all the way and a few TTT schools have a yearly BL placement, but I don't buy your rhetoric.

Alternatively, I can't deny that the overall quality of the student body is going to be higher at Iowa than at Drake and I agree with you that this must count for something. It's not 100% of the equation, though.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:50 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:
Regarding the "I believe students get jobs, not schools." Are you really saying that Drake grads aren't scoring biglaw at the same rate (~1%) that Iowa grads are (~15%) because they're not dedicated enough? Are you saying that they aren't getting federal clerkships at the same rate for the same reason? It's pretty obvious that the schools, either because of reputation or a history of strong placement, are the driving catalyst behind graduate success. Sure, there are cinderella stories of TTT grads going all the way and a few TTT schools have a yearly BL placement, but I don't buy your rhetoric.


I'm saying that Drake students aren't scoring biglaw at the same rate as Iowa grads because they are Drake students, not Iowa grads. But if these same individuals who decided to attend Iowa back in 2010 instead went to Drake, it would be Drake with the 15% biglaw rate.

Employers hire human beings, not diplomas.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:56 pm

Let me put it another way that may be easier to understand. If the students who decided to attend Harvard in 2010 instead decided to attend Drake, almost all of these students would be still be successful upon graduation. Not as successful, because the Harvard name and alumni network counts for something, but they would be 10x more successful than the Drake classes right before them and right after them.

Because most people on this website are determined not to put any blame on law students for their part in having failing careers, most people on this website also don't give students any credit for their own successes. Everything is explained by luck or the by name on your diploma. I believe that's a short-sited and immature way to look at the world, albeit a very popular and easy way.

BigZuck
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:45 pm

Randy-Of course the diploma matters. It's not dispositive but it's a huge factor in employment. Granted less so in lots of PI and maybe some small firms and stuff like that than in big law or clerkships. But you're way underselling how much the school you choose matters.

Cute "short-sited" strawman though

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:52 pm

BigZuck wrote:Randy-Of course the diploma matters. It's not dispositive but it's a huge factor in employment. Granted less so in lots of PI and maybe some small firms and stuff like that than in big law or clerkships. But you're way underselling how much the school you choose matters.


Isn't it difficult to be so sure without any data?

I agree it matters, a good amount, for biglaw and clerkships. My original post on the topic was regarding non elite schools.

Also eat a bag of dicks with that Randy shit.

BigZuck
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Re: Iowa v. Illinois v. Colorado v. Minnesota

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:12 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Randy-Of course the diploma matters. It's not dispositive but it's a huge factor in employment. Granted less so in lots of PI and maybe some small firms and stuff like that than in big law or clerkships. But you're way underselling how much the school you choose matters.


Isn't it difficult to be so sure without any data?

I agree it matters, a good amount, for biglaw and clerkships. My original post on the topic was regarding non elite schools.

Also eat a bag of dicks with that Randy shit.

Randy- I'm not going to call you Lord Randolph McDuff. You are Randy. That's a choice you made.

You were talking about non-elite schools, sure. But you said those Iowa kids who got big law would have got big law if they had went to Drake. The full 15%. That's nonsense you silly billy.




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