Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

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Trumpet101
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Trumpet101 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:32 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
Trumpet101 wrote:I'm still waiting to hear from nyu/columbia but, realistically, they're both <%5 likelihood of acceptance. I'm nearly certain I want to live/work in nyc eventually which is why I'm not paying too much mind to emory and their surprisingly large offer. Fordham at half does scare me, though. Really it comes down to what the bigger gamble is (for me and OP, or anyone else who's decision is fordham v cardozo/brooklyn): go with more money but lower chance of landing big job, or less money but improved chances of big job.

that's a really awful false dilemma you've put yourself into. you have several options preferable to both.


what are the options? Emory offered more than half/year, as did BC, but I'd like to stay in new york. Assuming I don't get into either nyu or columbia (and if I did, would likely be paying sticker), what are the other options? I really don't think either one is a "bad" decision. I realize some of you are the notoriously pompous jackasses that condescend to all who aren't going to a t-14, but this is the reality for most (including OP, it seems).

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landshoes
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:38 pm

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Last edited by landshoes on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:39 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Trumpet101 wrote:I'm still waiting to hear from nyu/columbia but, realistically, they're both <%5 likelihood of acceptance. I'm nearly certain I want to live/work in nyc eventually which is why I'm not paying too much mind to emory and their surprisingly large offer. Fordham at half does scare me, though. Really it comes down to what the bigger gamble is (for me and OP, or anyone else who's decision is fordham v cardozo/brooklyn): go with more money but lower chance of landing big job, or less money but improved chances of big job.

that's a really awful false dilemma you've put yourself into. you have several options preferable to both.


what are the options? Emory offered more than half/year, as did BC, but I'd like to stay in new york. Assuming I don't get into either nyu or columbia (and if I did, would likely be paying sticker), what are the other options? I really don't think either one is a "bad" decision. I realize some of you are the notoriously pompous jackasses that condescend to all who aren't going to a t-14, but this is the reality for most (including OP, it seems).

I don't go to a T14 either, you cunthead fuck

the superior option to your false dilemma is not going
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middlebear
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby middlebear » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:40 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:what are the options? Emory offered more than half/year, as did BC, but I'd like to stay in new york. Assuming I don't get into either nyu or columbia (and if I did, would likely be paying sticker), what are the other options? I really don't think either one is a "bad" decision. I realize some of you are the notoriously pompous jackasses that condescend to all who aren't going to a t-14, but this is the reality for most (including OP, it seems).


I think the thing is, if OP played the cards right (and sat out for one more cycle), they could be going to a T-14, with the much better job prospects that comes with that.

And this hasn't been one of those "if you don't get into a T-14 don't go to law school" threads. NYC has a jackton of lawyers; people have been pointing out that, if you want to stay there for school, there isn't a good regional option like exists in most other parts of the country, because NYC firms have their pick of the country. That is the main reason they're saying that Brooklyn/Cardozo are more risk and debt than they're worth.

OP: Northwestern!

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BankruptMe
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BankruptMe » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:50 pm

I wouldn't go to either, at those prices.

Being a full time student in NYC alone will break your pockets.

I would say figure out where you want to practice and go to a school that feeds into it without breaking the bank.

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landshoes
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:53 pm

BankruptMe wrote:I wouldn't go to either, at those prices.

Being a full time student in NYC alone will break your pockets.

I would say figure out where you want to practice and go to a school that feeds into it without breaking the bank.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:02 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:
Trumpet101 wrote:I'm still waiting to hear from nyu/columbia but, realistically, they're both <%5 likelihood of acceptance. I'm nearly certain I want to live/work in nyc eventually which is why I'm not paying too much mind to emory and their surprisingly large offer. Fordham at half does scare me, though. Really it comes down to what the bigger gamble is (for me and OP, or anyone else who's decision is fordham v cardozo/brooklyn): go with more money but lower chance of landing big job, or less money but improved chances of big job.

that's a really awful false dilemma you've put yourself into. you have several options preferable to both.


what are the options? Emory offered more than half/year, as did BC, but I'd like to stay in new york. Assuming I don't get into either nyu or columbia (and if I did, would likely be paying sticker), what are the other options? I really don't think either one is a "bad" decision. I realize some of you are the notoriously pompous jackasses that condescend to all who aren't going to a t-14, but this is the reality for most (including OP, it seems).

Where are you getting the bolded from?

Anyway, most people's "But I've always wanted to be a lawyer, I'm going no matter what!" thing is based on a THIRST FOR JUSTICE, or "People have always told me I'm a good arguer," or one too many Law and Order episodes or other silly things. Its just not worth 3 years of your life and, especially, the insane cost of attendance to go to these schools.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:41 pm

So—say I go PI. Any reason not to ride out LRAP until I get PSLF? Most of my softs are in PI and that's also the track I've been on.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:47 pm

confused_humpback wrote:So—say I go PI. Any reason not to ride out LRAP until I get PSLF? Most of my softs are in PI and that's also the track I've been on.

What kind of PI are we talking here? How easy is it to get that kind of job?

What do these schools' LRAP programs look like?

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:53 pm

confused_humpback wrote:So—say I go PI. Any reason not to ride out LRAP until I get PSLF? Most of my softs are in PI and that's also the track I've been on.

PI gunners (who are shooting for unprefstigious PI) are better off aiming for no debt and allow themselves long term flexibility. None of your listed options meet that goal. Logic for this:

- very solid chance PSLF won't be there in thirteen years. Leadership of both parties appear to want to slash/cap it.

- pslf-eligible jobs are very competitive and hiring and hiring standards are fickle. Also, 44% of all graduates nationally can't get a job as a lawyer, and they average about 120K in debt; they're all want this magic ticket out of their crushing debt.

- it's a ten year commitment post graduation. That's a long time. There's also a strong record of PI attys on TLS talking
about how a large portion of PI work kind of sucks (in that it often lacks substance or is unrewarding in the sense that your job becomes more tied to fundraising instead of the mission) and that your coworkers are largely insufferable trust fund babies whose 40K salary is their discretionary spending cash.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:00 pm

BigZuck wrote:
confused_humpback wrote:So—say I go PI. Any reason not to ride out LRAP until I get PSLF? Most of my softs are in PI and that's also the track I've been on.

What kind of PI are we talking here? How easy is it to get that kind of job?

What do these schools' LRAP programs look like?
zombie mcavoy wrote:
confused_humpback wrote:So—say I go PI. Any reason not to ride out LRAP until I get PSLF? Most of my softs are in PI and that's also the track I've been on.

PI gunners (who are shooting for unprefstigious PI) are better off aiming for no debt and allow themselves long term flexibility. None of your listed options meet that goal. Logic for this:

- very solid chance PSLF won't be there in thirteen years. Leadership of both parties appear to want to slash/cap it.

- pslf-eligible jobs are very competitive and hiring and hiring standards are fickle. Also, 44% of all graduates nationally can't get a job as a lawyer, and they average about 120K in debt; they're all want this magic ticket out of their crushing debt.

- it's a ten year commitment post graduation. That's a long time. There's also a strong record of PI attys on TLS talking
about how a large portion of PI work kind of sucks (in that it often lacks substance or is unrewarding in the sense that your job becomes more tied to fundraising instead of the mission) and that your coworkers are largely insufferable trust fund babies whose 40K salary is their discretionary spending cash.


So one thing I've failed to mention (sorry for that), is that BLS is offering me tuition insurance. If I'm unemployed or not making more than a certain amount (55k) within 9 months of graduating, they'll pay any outstanding loans to use for tuition. That would still leave me with any loans taken out for my CoL.

Difficulty of getting jobs in my field? I'm very confident about getting PI in my field, especially if I spend 3 years networking, resume building, and going to school in NYC. It's a big field in the city.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:01 pm

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BigZuck
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:03 pm

K then if you've got a guaranteed job just cop a fully somewhere in NYC and call it a cycle.

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fratstar1
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby fratstar1 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:03 pm

Image

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:10 pm

Even if you're right, having 115K in loans from Brooklyn and getting a PI job that pays 50K in NYC is really undesirable place to be.

I don't really give a fuck about money, at least compared to most people on this forum, but come on dude. If PSLF dies, you're completely screwed. I would take out no more than 50-60K, tops if this is really your goal. That's going to require you to leave the city.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:06 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Even if you're right, having 115K in loans from Brooklyn and getting a PI job that pays 50K in NYC is really undesirable place to be.

I don't really give a fuck about money, at least compared to most people on this forum, but come on dude. If PSLF dies, you're completely screwed. I would take out no more than 50-60K, tops if this is really your goal. That's going to require you to leave the city.


Hey, Zombie. Just want to say I'm really appreciating you're input. It's really helpful to be discussing this with somebody who is really getting down to brass tacks.

With that being said, I just want to further hypo a bit that I end up doing this. Let's say I finish with 115k in debt, and I land a 60k PI position. With PSLF and LRAP, that's not that unmanageable is it? It just means I'm going to probably have debt indefinitely. But the debt amount is still smaller than even a small to mid size mortgage. Sure I can't liquidate it, but it also gets me past the 35k glass ceiling I have in the service industry.

Also, there's just some other more existential considerations. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in the service industry and I'd like to have a career centered around PI, public policy, and politically progressive related work (initially my interests were labor law). At this point, since I'm supporting myself full time in the service industry—there's pretty high barriers to making that happen without going back to school. Especially because I can't just stop working (no family money, etc).

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LawsRUs
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby LawsRUs » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:14 pm

Fordham's LRAP won't cover you if your income is $60k iirc.

ETA: nvm, they changed it recently to $66k.
Last edited by LawsRUs on Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:19 pm

confused_humpback wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:Even if you're right, having 115K in loans from Brooklyn and getting a PI job that pays 50K in NYC is really undesirable place to be.

I don't really give a fuck about money, at least compared to most people on this forum, but come on dude. If PSLF dies, you're completely screwed. I would take out no more than 50-60K, tops if this is really your goal. That's going to require you to leave the city.


Hey, Zombie. Just want to say I'm really appreciating you're input. It's really helpful to be discussing this with somebody who is really getting down to brass tacks.

With that being said, I just want to further hypo a bit that I end up doing this. Let's say I finish with 115k in debt, and I land a 60k PI position. With PSLF and LRAP, that's not that unmanageable is it? It just means I'm going to probably have debt indefinitely. But the debt amount is still smaller than even a small to mid size mortgage. Sure I can't liquidate it, but it also gets me past the 35k glass ceiling I have in the service industry.

Also, there's just some other more existential considerations. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in the service industry and I'd like to have a career centered around PI, public policy, and politically progressive related work (initially my interests were labor law). At this point, since I'm supporting myself full time in the service industry—there's pretty high barriers to making that happen without going back to school. Especially because I can't just stop working (no family money, etc).


I know someone who is a prosecutor. Went to HYS so probably more debt than what you're talking about, granted. I'm guessing about 200K. But she is on LRAP/PSLF and she said it was really hard for her and her husband (who has like a 50ishK job) to get a modest mortgage (I'm guessing about 200K). Even being on those programs and a JD from a great school, most lenders were very leery of her.

I don't know, maybe that's not representative. And maybe you don't care about ever qualifying for a mortgage even if it is. But ballooning debt that only goes away if you work for 10 years and the government doesn't gut the program doesn't sound great to me. And this isn't even considering that you might not get the job you're confident that you're going to get.

I'm not anti-PI. Or anti-non-T14s. I would just be really careful about keeping debt as low as possible no matter what you do or where you go to school.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:30 pm

confused_humpback wrote:Hey, Zombie. Just want to say I'm really appreciating you're input. It's really helpful to be discussing this with somebody who is really getting down to brass tacks.

With that being said, I just want to further hypo a bit that I end up doing this. Let's say I finish with 115k in debt, and I land a 60k PI position. With PSLF and LRAP, that's not that unmanageable is it? It just means I'm going to probably have debt indefinitely. But the debt amount is still smaller than even a small to mid size mortgage. Sure I can't liquidate it, but it also gets me past the 35k glass ceiling I have in the service industry.

Also, there's just some other more existential considerations. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in the service industry and I'd like to have a career centered around PI, public policy, and politically progressive related work (initially my interests were labor law). At this point, since I'm supporting myself full time in the service industry—there's pretty high barriers to making that happen without going back to school. Especially because I can't just stop working (no family money, etc).

of course dude, we're all here to help. I have pretty humble roots, too, and I would have been totally lost w/r/t choosing a school if not for finding TLS. That being said, feel welcome to discount everything I say; I'm just a 1L who's basically regurgitating what I've read from older posters.

As to your hypo, I totally get where you're coming from. But we're all pretty harsh about this for a reason: we're risk averse, and we don't want you to have to struggle in that way that literally tens of thousands of young lawyers are currently struggling/have had to struggle. You might be successful and happy taking this route, but the odds are stacked against you. If you hate your current position so much that you want to take a seriously huge and unnecessary risk, we get it, we're just not going to say "go for it."

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LawsRUs
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby LawsRUs » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:35 pm

^^ zom, where you going to school rn? Feel free to pm.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:51 pm

UT (mostly as a result of only selectively taking tls' advice).

Trumpet101
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Trumpet101 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:21 pm

Zomb, I didn't mean to be hard-headed earlier, nor did I mean to hijack OP's line of inquiry. I'm nervous because I'm in a similar situation and trying to justify a fordham or cardozo (however irrational that may be). I guess I am looking for someone to say "yea, go for it!" and sort of make my decision for me.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:36 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:Zomb, I didn't mean to be hard-headed earlier, nor did I mean to hijack OP's line of inquiry. I'm nervous because I'm in a similar situation and trying to justify a fordham or cardozo (however irrational that may be). I guess I am looking for someone to say "yea, go for it!" and sort of make my decision for me.

TLS isn't a great place for that

In my experience, if you want validation you should talk to, like, an avuncular type relative. They likely think any law school is great and won't push back

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landshoes
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:37 pm

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby 03152016 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:31 pm

confused_humpback wrote:So one thing I've failed to mention (sorry for that), is that BLS is offering me tuition insurance. If I'm unemployed or not making more than a certain amount (55k) within 9 months of graduating, they'll pay any outstanding loans to use for tuition. That would still leave me with any loans taken out for my CoL.

whoa. i had no idea schools did that. are there any stipulations? they'll pay off outstanding loans, not just help you make payments towards it? really interesting (not saying you should do it)




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