Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

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confused_humpback
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Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:24 pm

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Last edited by confused_humpback on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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transferror
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:26 pm

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:29 pm

added some info

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ncc1701
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby ncc1701 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:41 pm

confused_humpback wrote:GPA 3.2 and LSAT 170.


Why haven't you applied to any of the T14 schools? You're already in NYC, so why not Columbia or NYU? I don't know how much money they're going to give, but there's no harm in trying. Please don't waste that LSAT score.

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transferror
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:43 pm

Are there stipulations on the scholarships, and if so what are they? (i.e. must be above 3.xx GPA or be in top 40% of class)

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:44 pm

ncc1701 wrote:
confused_humpback wrote:GPA 3.2 and LSAT 170.


Why haven't you applied to any of the T14 schools? You're already in NYC, so why not Columbia or NYU? I don't know how much money they're going to give, but there's no harm in trying. Please don't waste that LSAT score.


Waitlisted from every T14 school I applied to: Cornell, Vandy, Georgetown. Still havent heard from NYU.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:47 pm

transferror wrote:Are there stipulations on the scholarships, and if so what are they? (i.e. must be above 3.xx GPA or be in top 40% of class)


They both have an 80th percentile requirement.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:03 pm

none of the above. wouldn't take that much debt for the job prospects at either. Was this 170 from February or December of this cycle? I would give it another cycle, and I'd apply to Northwestern, and I'd retake again in June.

Also, you're committing 3 1/2 years of your life and a ton of debt/opportunity cost to join a profession, but you don't even have a vague idea of what you want to do in that profession? OK. Take this year to retake and reapply, but you also need to seriously reassess what you're doing here, and be ready to walk away with an alternative plan.

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transferror
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:05 pm

The problem is that NYC doesn't have a strong regional school or state flagship like many other areas, so it's pretty much NYU/Columbia>>Cornell>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fordham>>everything else. The top three options are generally the only good ones, and it's tough to get in with enough $$ to make it sensible to attend.

Honestly, none of your options are good. Fordham is ok if you have a full ride and are not set on working in a big firm, but you're looking at 75k tuition (not accounting for inflation) +85k CoL + interest. You'll be near 175k at repayment, with less than a 1/3 chance of getting a job that can service the debt.

Brooklyn only gives you a 55% of becoming an attorney, so it's probably not worth attending even with a full ride. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/brooklyn/2013/

It sucks, but I think you have to negotiate a full ride from Fordham or pass on all of these options and re-evaluate.

**mostly scooped by Mcavoy and agree with what he said

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:10 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:none of the above. wouldn't take that much debt for the job prospects at either. Was this 170 from February or December of this cycle? I would give it another cycle, and I'd apply to Northwestern, and I'd retake again in June.

Also, you're committing 3 1/2 years of your life and a ton of debt/opportunity cost to join a profession, but you don't even have a vague idea of what you want to do in that profession? OK. Take this year to retake and reapply, but you also need to seriously reassess what you're doing here, and be ready to walk away with an alternative plan.


170 from September. Definitely not taking the LSATs again. I took them twice (my first score was much lower—85th percentile).

And I have more than a vague sense of what I want to do (strong interest in labor and employment/non-profit work/public interest)... But I'm definitely open to different directions.

As a disclaimer, I've worked in the service industry for a few years, as well. So even if I leave school with 100-150k in debt that I can pay with an income based repayment plan, I'd still be in a better position than I have been for a few years.

The one thing I do agree with, though, is reapplying in the next admissions cycle. I've given quite a bit of thought to that. Didn't apply til a bit late in this cycle (Dec. 15th). Can't help but feel I could have done better if earlier.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:18 pm

Yeah why did you apply so late? That's not a killer time, but it's not helpful.

You're right on the cusp of having better options; two more points and you're looking at money at NYU and a columbia acceptance. Seems silly that you would improve so dramatically then say it'd be stupid to try and get one more question correct, when you know it can make all the difference in the world. Especially if you're going to sit a year out, what the hell else are you going to do?

It's your life, but Fordham with that debt is just straight irresponsible, and you're going to wish you stayed at a crap retail job when and if you strike out. There's a very good chance that would be the outcome. I probably wouldn't go to Brooklyn under any circumstances.

Good luck.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:22 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Yeah why did you apply so late? That's not a killer time, but it's not helpful.

You're right on the cusp of having better options; two more points and you're looking at money at NYU and a columbia acceptance. Seems silly that you would improve so dramatically then say it'd be stupid to try and get one more question correct, when you know it can make all the difference in the world. Especially if you're going to sit a year out, what the hell else are you going to do?

It's your life, but Fordham with that debt is just straight irresponsible, and you're going to wish you stayed at a crap retail job when and if you strike out. There's a very good chance that would be the outcome. I probably wouldn't go to Brooklyn under any circumstances.

Good luck.


Applied a bit late mainly because I spent a lot of time working on personal statements (wanted to wait until I really felt they were ready) and also full time jobs, etc.

Thanks for your input. You are probably right. Tough decision.

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Winston1984
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Winston1984 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:31 pm

Maybe take the LSAT in June and see if you improve? If you do, you can sit out and apply again. If not, I guess you could go now. I would think you could get pretty good money from WUSTL/Emory/GW. Maybe even BU/BC? $150k for Fordham is too much. But, gun to my head, I would take it over your Brooklyn/Dozo offers.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby nygrrrl » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:44 pm

I agree with those suggesting you wait it out and apply next cycle - have your apps ready to go in September and get them in the first week they're accepted.

I went to Fordham because I needed an evening program; if I could have done a day program, Northwestern would have been my absolute first choice (similar numbers to yours, plus WE). All of the kids in my (evening) class did really well in terms of landing the gigs we wanted, but I think in large part that's because we all had work experience going in and we knew how to bust our asses and leverage our WE in OCI. Also, most of us graduated with little or no debt by combining scholly money with full time jobs. If not for that... I don't think I could have taken the chance.

Fordham is an incredibly risky bet, Brooklyn and Dozo are just... Yeah. Don't do this. I get that you don't want to retake the LSAT but I cannot recommend strongly enough waiting this out and trying again next cycle. I know you want NYC but I'd hit UVA and Northwestern as well. Best of luck and feel free to PM me with Fordham questions.

ETA: Yes, also GULC, BU/BC.

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confused_humpback
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:46 am

nygrrrl wrote:I agree with those suggesting you wait it out and apply next cycle - have your apps ready to go in September and get them in the first week they're accepted.

I went to Fordham because I needed an evening program; if I could have done a day program, Northwestern would have been my absolute first choice (similar numbers to yours, plus WE). All of the kids in my (evening) class did really well in terms of landing the gigs we wanted, but I think in large part that's because we all had work experience going in and we knew how to bust our asses and leverage our WE in OCI. Also, most of us graduated with little or no debt by combining scholly money with full time jobs. If not for that... I don't think I could have taken the chance.

Fordham is an incredibly risky bet, Brooklyn and Dozo are just... Yeah. Don't do this. I get that you don't want to retake the LSAT but I cannot recommend strongly enough waiting this out and trying again next cycle. I know you want NYC but I'd hit UVA and Northwestern as well. Best of luck and feel free to PM me with Fordham questions.

ETA: Yes, also GULC, BU/BC.


Thanks for the response. I'll definitely be shooting you some questions.

As a side note, Northeastern sent me a free water bottle in the mail. Should I take that into account as I make a decision?

:lol:

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Jakobe » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:17 am

Even if he got a 172 do you guys really think he is looking at money at NYU with a 3.2? Id think hed be at most a borderline acceptance to be honest.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby confused_humpback » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:05 am

Jakobe wrote:Even if he got a 172 do you guys really think he is looking at money at NYU with a 3.2? Id think hed be at most a borderline acceptance to be honest.


Yeah, that's also a question I had in this thread. I'm a non-URM, male, little great WE and probably weak softs. I can't help but feel that I performed about as best I could with my numbers. I guess my only other option would be to re-wait until next year and bump down to weaker T-2 regional schools (possibly T-3) and just shoot for full rides (and possibly stipends).

Even with a 172, I would probably get accepted to more T-14s—but probably at sticker price.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Trumpet101 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:15 am

why is the general consensus to avoid cardozo? I realize it just dropped in the rankings (it's now resting just one notch above brooklyn), but it should still be a consideration. I know prestige is a big factor, but employers are mainly looking for the hard-workers - i.e. the ones at the top of their class, regardless of school (so says more than a handful of friends who are recent grads from nyu, fordham, dozo).

I'm in a similar position as OP - about half scholarship to Fordham; just below a full one to Cardozo. Fordham is undoubtedly the better school, but what does that entail? More loans and the luxury of graduating top %20 rather than %10-15 at Dozo and still landing biglaw? It's for that reason that I'm leaning towards Cardozo.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Manteca » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:19 am

I go to Cardozo. Don't go here.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:21 am

Trumpet101 wrote:why is the general consensus to avoid cardozo? I realize it just dropped in the rankings (it's now resting just one notch above brooklyn), but it should still be a consideration. I know prestige is a big factor, but employers are mainly looking for the hard-workers - i.e. the ones at the top of their class, regardless of school (so says more than a handful of friends who are recent grads from nyu, fordham, dozo).

I'm in a similar position as OP - about half scholarship to Fordham; just below a full one to Cardozo. Fordham is undoubtedly the better school, but what does that entail? More loans and the luxury of graduating top %20 rather than %10-15 at Dozo and still landing biglaw? It's for that reason that I'm leaning towards Cardozo.

TWIST: Don't go to either

I mean, Cardozo on a full ride is probably ok if you have really modest goals (and, ideally, connections which can help you get that job)

Fordham on a half ride is unjustifiable IMO

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:32 am

confused_humpback wrote:
Jakobe wrote:Even if he got a 172 do you guys really think he is looking at money at NYU with a 3.2? Id think hed be at most a borderline acceptance to be honest.


Yeah, that's also a question I had in this thread. I'm a non-URM, male, little great WE and probably weak softs. I can't help but feel that I performed about as best I could with my numbers. I guess my only other option would be to re-wait until next year and bump down to weaker T-2 regional schools (possibly T-3) and just shoot for full rides (and possibly stipends).

Even with a 172, I would probably get accepted to more T-14s—but probably at sticker price.

The reality is that the NYC area isn't a great one for people with GPAs like yours. There isn't a WUSTL or UIUC that pays big money to splitters and allows one to live relatively cheaply. If heading elsewhere isn't an option you've either gotta pony up a ridiculous amount for CLS/NYU or take the Dozo/BLS full ride and expect to strike out at OCI. I see Fordham as a middle option only if you get a significant scholarship and do the part time program.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby Trumpet101 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:12 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Trumpet101 wrote:why is the general consensus to avoid cardozo? I realize it just dropped in the rankings (it's now resting just one notch above brooklyn), but it should still be a consideration. I know prestige is a big factor, but employers are mainly looking for the hard-workers - i.e. the ones at the top of their class, regardless of school (so says more than a handful of friends who are recent grads from nyu, fordham, dozo).

I'm in a similar position as OP - about half scholarship to Fordham; just below a full one to Cardozo. Fordham is undoubtedly the better school, but what does that entail? More loans and the luxury of graduating top %20 rather than %10-15 at Dozo and still landing biglaw? It's for that reason that I'm leaning towards Cardozo.

TWIST: Don't go to either

I mean, Cardozo on a full ride is probably ok if you have really modest goals (and, ideally, connections which can help you get that job)

Fordham on a half ride is unjustifiable IMO


I'm still waiting to hear from nyu/columbia but, realistically, they're both <%5 likelihood of acceptance. I'm nearly certain I want to live/work in nyc eventually which is why I'm not paying too much mind to emory and their surprisingly large offer. Fordham at half does scare me, though. Really it comes down to what the bigger gamble is (for me and OP, or anyone else who's decision is fordham v cardozo/brooklyn): go with more money but lower chance of landing big job, or less money but improved chances of big job.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby chuckbass » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:21 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:why is the general consensus to avoid cardozo? I realize it just dropped in the rankings (it's now resting just one notch above brooklyn), but it should still be a consideration. I know prestige is a big factor, but employers are mainly looking for the hard-workers - i.e. the ones at the top of their class, regardless of school (so says more than a handful of friends who are recent grads from nyu, fordham, dozo).

I'm in a similar position as OP - about half scholarship to Fordham; just below a full one to Cardozo. Fordham is undoubtedly the better school, but what does that entail? More loans and the luxury of graduating top %20 rather than %10-15 at Dozo and still landing biglaw? It's for that reason that I'm leaning towards Cardozo.

You're just trying to justify making a bad decision for yourself rather than actually trying to help OP.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:23 pm

Trumpet101 wrote:I'm still waiting to hear from nyu/columbia but, realistically, they're both <%5 likelihood of acceptance. I'm nearly certain I want to live/work in nyc eventually which is why I'm not paying too much mind to emory and their surprisingly large offer. Fordham at half does scare me, though. Really it comes down to what the bigger gamble is (for me and OP, or anyone else who's decision is fordham v cardozo/brooklyn): go with more money but lower chance of landing big job, or less money but improved chances of big job.

that's a really awful false dilemma you've put yourself into. you have several options preferable to both.

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middlebear
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Re: Brooklyn ($$) vs. Fordham ($)

Postby middlebear » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:30 pm

1 - those 80th percentile scholly requirements sound like traps.

2 - is this a case where you could sit out, reapply next cycle (ideally with a beefed-up LSAT - even a point or two would help) and re-blanket the bottom T-14? You want to work in NYC eventually, but if you go to a T-14 NYC is the sort of default BigLaw location, it doesn't matter that you'd be going to LS elsewhere.

OP - do you have WE? For those with knowledge greater than me - are these the sort of numbers that could compete for the Northwestern ED scholarship?




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