What's the deal with Harvard students?

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starry eyed
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby starry eyed » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:55 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.

Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, stuck in a shitty job, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the rare butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). (Most jobs in the legal profession are frankly shit.) The trust fund lawyers I know don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.


Although hyperbolic, i think this post is pretty spot-on.. How else are hiring attorney supposed to evaluate candidates for their first job? To pay that much extra money to have a sliver of a chance at being a congressman or some unicorn job means you are either already rich or incredibly naive. After the first job, interpersonal/business skills and actual lawyering skills are way more important than lay prestige.

That goes for pretty much every industry. The more prestigious the degree, the more initial opportunities you have. I would value the extra HYS prestige at 50k tops, compared to Columbia full-ride.

But everyone of course would have to decide how much that extra prestige is worth. For a guy who dreams of being POTUS every night, maybe it's worth 300k.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:58 am

Wha lt if I think I'll actually enjoy lawyering? Does that make sticker acceptable?

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:05 am

LSATneurotic wrote:Wha lt if I think I'll actually enjoy lawyering? Does that make sticker acceptable?

This is a ridiculous question because everyone thinks they'll like lawyering or they wouldn't go to law school to begin with--regardless of price. "I'm going to HLS, I don't want to be a lawyer, but prestige." Said no one, even the idiots, on TLS ever.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:08 am

CounselorNebby wrote:
LSATneurotic wrote:Wha lt if I think I'll actually enjoy lawyering? Does that make sticker acceptable?

This is a ridiculous question because everyone thinks they'll like lawyering or they wouldn't go to law school to begin with--regardless of price. "I'm going to HLS, I don't want to be a lawyer, but prestige." Said no one, even the idiots, on TLS ever.

I get your point, but there are definitely people who show up and say "I'm not interested in law but I don't have any other options and I want a high paying job." I agree that plenty of people think they'll like lawyering who don't actually know anything practical about it, though.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:11 am

CounselorNebby wrote:
LSATneurotic wrote:Wha lt if I think I'll actually enjoy lawyering? Does that make sticker acceptable?

This is a ridiculous question because everyone thinks they'll like lawyering or they wouldn't go to law school to begin with--regardless of price. "I'm going to HLS, I don't want to be a lawyer, but prestige." Said no one, even the idiots, on TLS ever.

I'm not actually sure if most 0ls.have a solid conception of lawyering. It's probably more accurate to say that 0ls think they'll enjoy their notion of lawyering (cochran, Clarence darrow, etc) or they think they'll go to Harvard and promptly join congress. Quite a.few prospectives I've met have neverspent any time around law or legal work.

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:27 am

LSATneurotic wrote:
CounselorNebby wrote:
LSATneurotic wrote:Wha lt if I think I'll actually enjoy lawyering? Does that make sticker acceptable?

This is a ridiculous question because everyone thinks they'll like lawyering or they wouldn't go to law school to begin with--regardless of price. "I'm going to HLS, I don't want to be a lawyer, but prestige." Said no one, even the idiots, on TLS ever.

I'm not actually sure if most 0ls.have a solid conception of lawyering. It's probably more accurate to say that 0ls think they'll enjoy their notion of lawyering (cochran, Clarence darrow, etc) or they think they'll go to Harvard and promptly join congress. Quite a.few prospectives I've met have neverspent any time around law or legal work.

I agree that most 0Ls have no idea of what the work of a lawyer is, but also the work of a lawyer is dependent upon the time of work the lawyer does, so that confounds the issue.

I think you should go to HLS because you want to. Between BigLaw prospects and their LRAP, you really cannot go wrong in any direction. You'll either have to service your debt for 10 years, but will have a salary where it is manageable, or you'll take the paycut and do Gov/PI, but also not have to worry about servicing the debt.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:33 am

I only wanted to go to HLS before I joined TLS. You guys biased me against the place.

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:36 am

LSATneurotic wrote:I only wanted to go to HLS before I joined TLS. You guys biased me against the place.

I think all 0Ls should be on TLS. I talked to a bunch at an admitted students event (free beer) and basically parlayed my knowledge and they were like, "Why don't any of the admissions people tell us this stuff or the student ambassadors?" I said, "Because they want your money, but so does every other law school you'll be visiting, so take everything they say with a grain of salt."

If you have good funding at CCN, then you should go there. If you go to CLS, I will take you under my wing and teach you how to drink beer, lift weights, and keep up-to-date on the latest news concerning America domestically and internationally, as well as educate you on the latest anti-racist & feminist literature.

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:52 am

Got more in need aid at YHS than merit at CCN. Sorry, bud. That actually sounded like a lot of fun.

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:56 am

LSATneurotic wrote:Got more in need aid at YHS than merit at CCN. Sorry, bud. That actually sounded like a lot of fun.

Good shit.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:22 pm

starry eyed wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.

Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, stuck in a shitty job, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the rare butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). (Most jobs in the legal profession are frankly shit.) The trust fund lawyers I know don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.


Although hyperbolic, i think this post is pretty spot-on.. How else are hiring attorney supposed to evaluate candidates for their first job? To pay that much extra money to have a sliver of a chance at being a congressman or some unicorn job means you are either already rich or incredibly naive. After the first job, interpersonal/business skills and actual lawyering skills are way more important than lay prestige.

That goes for pretty much every industry. The more prestigious the degree, the more initial opportunities you have. I would value the extra HYS prestige at 50k tops, compared to Columbia full-ride.

But everyone of course would have to decide how much that extra prestige is worth. For a guy who dreams of being POTUS every night, maybe it's worth 300k.


Yea, I've finished making several years of loan repayments, have several years of practice experience, and think you're the one who is incredibly naive. You're not the only one who can throw conclusory semi-insults around.

A couple of quick additional points:

--Most of the discussion of the thread is how big that "sliver" of a chance is. I think it's fairly large. You don't. Go back and reread the first 10 or so pages for a more intelligent discussion of this than what we're going to be able to recreate here.

TLDR version: there are hard numbers that support the inference that Harvard does confer some noticeable advantage over Columbia for highly desirable non-biglaw positions, and that more than a small handful of Harvard students take these positions. But it's impossible to know for sure either way, and the numbers are unclear about what percentage of Harvard/Columbia students who want these positions actually are able to get them. We all disagree about how much COA difference this effect justifies, and there's no objective way to assess that.

--Interpersonal skills and actual lawyering ability is always going to trump what law school you went to, but you're not always going to get into a position where you can show those things--even after your first job.

--To that point, the law school that you went to is something that will play a role in your whole career, start to end. If you want to get a pretty good sense of what matters late in a lawyer's career, pull a bunch of bio pages for biglaw partners. Generally, folks put the law school they attended in a pretty prominent place even when they have years of impressive victories to highlight. (Partners tend to talk this stuff up too.) Obviously the relative importance of law school attended decreases, but it never really goes away.

--What you do for your first job will have an enormous impact on what you do for your second job, third job, etc. So even if the effect of the law school you attended did peter out after your initial job (and it doesn't), because it has such an influence on first job hiring, it also will have a substantial indirect influence on the rest of your jobs.

--I'm glad that more top 0Ls don't interact with TLS. TLS is incredibly reactionary and is filled with 2Ls condescending to 0Ls about points that really neither group of folks is particularly educated about. It was like that when I first joined (and the accepted wisdom was to go to the best school possible at any cost) and it's like that now (where the prevailing winds blow much more strongly in the direction of 'avoid debt at any cost').

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:46 pm

Re: abl

Tls debt aversion is a reaction to lukewarm legal hiring, presumably. If more 0Ls were debt averse, schools in the 1-14 would actually have to respond to market pressures. Instead, year after year, droves of 0Ls take on debt because they dont want to wonder how things would've gone if they went to Harvard or something--thus the sky-high costs.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:04 pm

Abi. Neither one of us is right or wrong. There are two types of people... conservative and risk-takers (within various ranges)

Putting 300k on the line for one of these fairydust jobs is similar to someone choosing to go to T14 sticker instead of T1 full ride in hopes of getting biglaw then bigfed/inhouse.

We obviously see which category you're in.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:20 pm

starry eyed wrote:Abi. Neither one of us is right or wrong. There are two types of people... conservative and risk-takers (within various ranges)

Putting 300k on the line for one of these fairydust jobs is similar to someone choosing to go to T14 sticker instead of T1 full ride in hopes of getting biglaw then bigfed/inhouse.

We obviously see which category you're in.


*meh* I don't even see it as such a binary personality issue. It's also how do you derive pleasure and satisfaction in life? If you've always liked school, you're kind of a striver dork and work and school-related accomplishments (or perceptions thereof) constitute the meat of your happiness, you might care less about how you live and what you can buy or how you can spend your time. You might care more about what others view as negligible differences in status or signaling. If work and school are ancillary and your life passions and happiness is motivated more by social, extracurricular, domestic, private affairs, you'll place more stock in personal freedom, low debt-slavery, free time, being around folks who aren't obsessed with marginal distinctions in type-A *achievement*.

I care significantly more about my life outside of school/work (which is still intellectually stimulating/culturally engaged enough) than school/work. I have professional goals, and I know where I am is more than sufficient to achieve them, and I'll do so preserving more free time and emotional energy to what defines my life. I don't envy those who feel differently, but I try to respect their choices.

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starry eyed
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:14 pm

yea i agree but would add that conservative are that way because they believe it will lead to higher satisfaction/happiness and same with risk-takers. A risk taker upon inheriting 5 million dollars would not safely take out 100k per year until dying like the conservative would. He would start buying businesses and looking for satisfaction/happiness through feelings of importance, goodwill, etc.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:27 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Abi. Neither one of us is right or wrong. There are two types of people... conservative and risk-takers (within various ranges)

Putting 300k on the line for one of these fairydust jobs is similar to someone choosing to go to T14 sticker instead of T1 full ride in hopes of getting biglaw then bigfed/inhouse.

We obviously see which category you're in.


*meh* I don't even see it as such a binary personality issue. It's also how do you derive pleasure and satisfaction in life? If you've always liked school, you're kind of a striver dork and work and school-related accomplishments (or perceptions thereof) constitute the meat of your happiness, you might care less about how you live and what you can buy or how you can spend your time. You might care more about what others view as negligible differences in status or signaling. If work and school are ancillary and your life passions and happiness is motivated more by social, extracurricular, domestic, private affairs, you'll place more stock in personal freedom, low debt-slavery, free time, being around folks who aren't obsessed with marginal distinctions in type-A *achievement*.

I care significantly more about my life outside of school/work (which is still intellectually stimulating/culturally engaged enough) than school/work. I have professional goals, and I know where I am is more than sufficient to achieve them, and I'll do so preserving more free time and emotional energy to what defines my life. I don't envy those who feel differently, but I try to respect their choices.


^^ I agree mostly, with some minor word quibbles. I'm only writing to clarify that the above implies that someone who values life more than work should take the money and run -- and I disagree with that. I'm guessing that there's near-universal acknowledgement that the $$-maximizing route (Columbia with little debt -- > biglaw) is also going to be the path that allows you the least time to preserve free time, emotional energy, etc. I also suspect that many of the unicorn-esque options that do allow a healthy work-life balance while also paying not terribly also have slightly less lay prestige than biglaw. But these are all very minor points, and I suspect any implications on your part that this is a choice between school/work prestige and life balance were unintentional.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:31 pm

abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Abi. Neither one of us is right or wrong. There are two types of people... conservative and risk-takers (within various ranges)

Putting 300k on the line for one of these fairydust jobs is similar to someone choosing to go to T14 sticker instead of T1 full ride in hopes of getting biglaw then bigfed/inhouse.

We obviously see which category you're in.


*meh* I don't even see it as such a binary personality issue. It's also how do you derive pleasure and satisfaction in life? If you've always liked school, you're kind of a striver dork and work and school-related accomplishments (or perceptions thereof) constitute the meat of your happiness, you might care less about how you live and what you can buy or how you can spend your time. You might care more about what others view as negligible differences in status or signaling. If work and school are ancillary and your life passions and happiness is motivated more by social, extracurricular, domestic, private affairs, you'll place more stock in personal freedom, low debt-slavery, free time, being around folks who aren't obsessed with marginal distinctions in type-A *achievement*.

I care significantly more about my life outside of school/work (which is still intellectually stimulating/culturally engaged enough) than school/work. I have professional goals, and I know where I am is more than sufficient to achieve them, and I'll do so preserving more free time and emotional energy to what defines my life. I don't envy those who feel differently, but I try to respect their choices.


^^ I agree mostly, with some minor word quibbles. I'm only writing to clarify that the above implies that someone who values life more than work should take the money and run -- and I disagree with that. I'm guessing that there's near-universal acknowledgement that the $$-maximizing route (Columbia with little debt -- > biglaw) is also going to be the path that allows you the least time to preserve free time, emotional energy, etc. I also suspect that many of the unicorn-esque options that do allow a healthy work-life balance while also paying not terribly also have slightly less lay prestige than biglaw. But these are all very minor points, and I suspect any implications on your part that this is a choice between school/work prestige and life balance were unintentional.


Yea, I was being somewhat facetious so play around with the words as you like.

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starry eyed
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:36 pm

now it is obvious why people with different outlooks tend to repulse one another lol..

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:35 pm

This discussion of personality types and willingness to take on risk is interesting for you guys to consider in retrospect, but I'm not sure it applies to 0Ls (at least not for me, others may differ). I only have a limited degree of certainty about how open to taking on risk I am generally, or how I "derive pleasure and satisfaction in life," and frankly it's not something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I am, however, pretty convinced that going $200k into debt for the somewhat increased likelihood of a job like abl's (an increase we agree we have no way of quantifying) is a poor choice, regardless of my personality type.

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starry eyed
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:14 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:This discussion of personality types and willingness to take on risk is interesting for you guys to consider in retrospect, but I'm not sure it applies to 0Ls (at least not for me, others may differ). I only have a limited degree of certainty about how open to taking on risk I am generally, or how I "derive pleasure and satisfaction in life," and frankly it's not something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I am, however, pretty convinced that going $200k into debt for the somewhat increased likelihood of a job like abl's (an increase we agree we have no way of quantifying) is a poor choice, regardless of my personality type.


being in academia too long insulates you from the outside world so it's hard to truly figure out what you want to do and what makes you happy... which is why' take some time off after UG' is often good advice.

but definitely don't shoot yourself in the foot with the 200k bullet until you have it figured out

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:39 pm

abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Abi. Neither one of us is right or wrong. There are two types of people... conservative and risk-takers (within various ranges)

Putting 300k on the line for one of these fairydust jobs is similar to someone choosing to go to T14 sticker instead of T1 full ride in hopes of getting biglaw then bigfed/inhouse.

We obviously see which category you're in.


*meh* I don't even see it as such a binary personality issue. It's also how do you derive pleasure and satisfaction in life? If you've always liked school, you're kind of a striver dork and work and school-related accomplishments (or perceptions thereof) constitute the meat of your happiness, you might care less about how you live and what you can buy or how you can spend your time. You might care more about what others view as negligible differences in status or signaling. If work and school are ancillary and your life passions and happiness is motivated more by social, extracurricular, domestic, private affairs, you'll place more stock in personal freedom, low debt-slavery, free time, being around folks who aren't obsessed with marginal distinctions in type-A *achievement*.

I care significantly more about my life outside of school/work (which is still intellectually stimulating/culturally engaged enough) than school/work. I have professional goals, and I know where I am is more than sufficient to achieve them, and I'll do so preserving more free time and emotional energy to what defines my life. I don't envy those who feel differently, but I try to respect their choices.


^^ I agree mostly, with some minor word quibbles. I'm only writing to clarify that the above implies that someone who values life more than work should take the money and run -- and I disagree with that. I'm guessing that there's near-universal acknowledgement that the $$-maximizing route (Columbia with little debt -- > biglaw) is also going to be the path that allows you the least time to preserve free time, emotional energy, etc. I also suspect that many of the unicorn-esque options that do allow a healthy work-life balance while also paying not terribly also have slightly less lay prestige than biglaw. But these are all very minor points, and I suspect any implications on your part that this is a choice between school/work prestige and life balance were unintentional.


Jesus god, do you really write this way? Maybe it's partly because I pulled another 16 hour day, but I had to read this post 5 times or so.

Anyway, most lawyers dislike the practice of law - so why pay for it? Why pay to be miserable? Who the fuck cares if you went to Yale or Harvard if you hate your life and your job?

But yes, if you're going to stay in law forever and ENJOY practicing, then by all means shell out 300k for your stupid bullshit degree. But since you're likely going to hate practicing, why be shackled with loans and this profession? Most lawyers I know wish they had done something else with their lives. This career is draining, with respect to time, money, and mentally (too much detail orientedness and worrying about minor shit all the fucking time). It's not "hard" to practice, but the level of tedium and detail orientedness drives me up the wall.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:52 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:
Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.

Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, stuck in a shitty job, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the rare butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). (Most jobs in the legal profession are frankly shit.) The trust fund lawyers I know don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.


Posts like this are confusing to 0Ls like myself. To make an informed decision about the debt load to take on for the more prestigious school, it is critical to know how much your school's reputation helps you advance x years after grad. Granted that is tough data to conclude but still conflicting anecdotes are troubling.


1) Nice avatar
2) Conflicting anecdotes is about all we can get or reasonably expect, unfortunately. That said, the poster you're quoting has shown himself to be a borderline troll who spreads misery under the guise of honesty, so don't take it too seriously.


You mean I actually practice law and know what I'm talking about w/r/t biglaw? "Spreading misery" means giving you a glimpse of your future life in biglaw. (Working all the time, thinking and knowing you don't get paid enough to put up with this bullshit, hating your career choices, living off little sleep).

Don't be a poor fool.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:10 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:You mean I actually practice law and know what I'm talking about w/r/t biglaw? "Spreading misery" means giving you a glimpse of your future life in biglaw. (Working all the time, thinking and knowing you don't get paid enough to put up with this bullshit, hating your career choices, living off little sleep).

Don't be a poor fool.


Haha while I do not completely agree with BiglawAssociate, he does give a good general rule. There are exceptions, of course, but I have never understood why people love using rare exceptions as the reason to shoot down a general rule. Most people are not the 1%; they are the 99%.

Debt sucks. Biglaw sucks. Paying bills sucks. A lot of the idealism that some 0Ls have really will get sucked out once they practice in the real world. That being said, I think BiglawAssociate has also missed out on some other facets. I know of attorneys who worked a few years then started their own business (in law, or really anything) and currently both have money and enjoy what they do. Sometimes being your own boss, regardless of the profession, will make you feel freer. I do not think money is the be-all-end-all in the real world, but man, is it important! I mean, not having debt may have let those same individuals go do what they wanted to do earlier, so go figure. Crushing debt often crushes people. It's a complicated world.

But BiglawAssociate, man, as someone who has been there and knows people still 'there', get out of biglaw! Your misery is palpable haha (or maybe we're catching your post in the middle of some deals about to close). Opportunities only show up for those who look for them :) Best of luck.

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Desert Fox
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:17 pm

I can't afford to buy a house because of my stupid loans. 220k on a ten year plan is like a 500k mortgage on 30 year fixed.

0Lkid
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby 0Lkid » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:12 pm

I didn't read the whole thread but just want to offer a non-circlejerk opinion. Also the question is about why Harvard students would go to Harvard, and as a 0L making that choice it could be a fresh perspective from someone who isn't a bitter 5 years out LS grad who still makes 300 posts on TLS per day. I would personally take even 100k of debt at Harvard (possibly more) instead of a half (over even a full) ride at CCN. To me it really seems like most people on this site talk about life outcomes purely in terms of money, and while that it is a priority for some people, others, especially those interested in PI have other goals. Now of course, everyone can't be president or on the supreme court or whatever, but 100% of people in unicorn jobs had to fully commit to going for those unicorn jobs while being laughed at by people who said it was incredibly unlikely. Of course 99% of the people who go for them fail, but that's something the 1% takes into account, and it's not like the 99% get nothing if they don't make it.

TLS people would take a safe 2nd over a risky 1st, but that's not everyone, and someone who would rather go for gold while risking coming in 3rd isn't necessarily stupid, as TLS would have you believe. It's just a different level of risk aversion, which when calculated is perfectly reasonable.

Harvard will leave more doors open (or more widely open) than going to CCN in many many ways, so if that matters to someone, taking a pay-cut for a few years in your 20s really, really isn't a ridiculous trade-off. People have different preferences, and I think TLS is just hostile towards anyone who expects more than median of themselves and doesn't care a ton about having a lot of money all the time.

The Harvard name carries in a ton of weight in such a large number of fields outside of NYC BigLaw, but anyone who supports Harvard on these forums gets ripped to shreds (last time I did it I got too many hostile PMs, hence me creating a throwaway this time).




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