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Associate at Pearson Hardman.Jason Taverner wrote:Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.
Nah they took a Columbia grad.LawBron James wrote:Associate at Pearson Hardman.Jason Taverner wrote:Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.
Scooped, CLS plebe.jbagelboy wrote:Jason Taverner wrote:Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.
Its like how Quinn Emmanuel says "only top 10% need apply," but they take top 40% from CLS
I disagree. Outcomes across the board are somewhat murkier than this (especially for unicorn jobs).jbagelboy wrote:Abl, I agree this thread is dead but explain that to us. Median at both schools will summer at some good firm. #1 at both schools can do whatever they want, probably COA-> scotus -> fellowship or lit boutique. Bottom person at both is most likely either at a very unselective firm or unemployed. I see zero difference in individual outcomes at those levels. The distinction occurs in murkier places in ranges.
Truth.Mal Reynolds wrote:Scooped, CLS plebe.jbagelboy wrote:Jason Taverner wrote:Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.
Its like how Quinn Emmanuel says "only top 10% need apply," but they take top 40% from CLS
Jason Taverner wrote:Concretely, what are these unicorn jobs y'all are talking about?
If they're really unicorn jobs, you're not getting them from median at either school.
I'm saying #1 at HLS is marginally more likely to get a SCOTUS clerkship than #1 at CLS, marginally more likely to land DOJ honors, marginally more likely to land a plush position with the ACLU, marginally more likely to land a better TT teaching position, etc. The fact that both are going to be highly competitive for all of these positions doesn't mean that they will be as competitive. I'm sorry if you think stating this fairly obvious point makes me insufferable.bearsfan23 wrote:It's simply my assertion--and it should not be a controversial one--that #1 at HLS tends to have a marginally wider array of options than #1 at CLS,
Umm what? Please explain to me the "marginally wider array of options" the #1 ranked student would have at Harvard that the #1 ranked student at CLS wouldn't? Both are pretty much going to be able to do whatever they want.
This is why people think HLS students are insufferable
Where else should we go? This was stimulating, fun, and interesting!LetsGoMets wrote:Agreed on all counts. As OP I think this thing has pretty much run its course. That said, I think there was a lot of interesting discussion on several topics of interest to 0Ls, so I think it was a useful exercise.bruinfan10 wrote:Easy there sparky.wsag826 wrote:It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.
Also, I'm blown away that this thread is still alive.
yeah but he never washed the stench of transfer off himjbagelboy wrote: There have been as many Columbia law presidents as Yale or Harvard (and 2 more than Stanford). The current president graduated from columbia college. CLS grads litter every echelon of gov't from attorney general on down
Yes, but they can do appellate stuff that non-clerks don't usually get to.star fox wrote:Don't most Clerks just go back to the big law firm they summered with when it's over?
At that level, background/interview skills/previous work experience/clubs/writing sample/recs/etc are going to matter much more than the difference between #1 at Harvard and #1 at Columbia. Both people are going to get a look for any job in the country that cares about grades and prestige. I really really doubt the tiebreaker will ever be, "well... she went to Harvard, so she must be a better candidate." I guess in some theoretical world where two identical twins have all the same experiences right up until one of them goes to Harvard and the other goes to Columbia, and then they do the exact same things at law school, it might be the tie breaker.abl wrote:I'm saying #1 at HLS is marginally more likely to get a SCOTUS clerkship than #1 at CLS, marginally more likely to land DOJ honors, marginally more likely to land a plush position with the ACLU, marginally more likely to land a better TT teaching position, etc. The fact that both are going to be highly competitive for all of these positions doesn't mean that they will be as competitive. I'm sorry if you think stating this fairly obvious point makes me insufferable.bearsfan23 wrote:It's simply my assertion--and it should not be a controversial one--that #1 at HLS tends to have a marginally wider array of options than #1 at CLS,
Umm what? Please explain to me the "marginally wider array of options" the #1 ranked student would have at Harvard that the #1 ranked student at CLS wouldn't? Both are pretty much going to be able to do whatever they want.
This is why people think HLS students are insufferable
I'm not even arguing here that it's a big difference or a difference that justifies any real amount of debt level. My point is just that there is a difference.
I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.
I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?
None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.
Sounds like somebody had a bad day. Cheer up BIGLAW ASSOCIATEBiglawAssociate wrote:I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.
I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?
None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.
Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). They don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.
I singled out H when I started the thread because I was asking about my experience there. A lot of people took it as an attack on the school, which wasn't my goal, but it partially became a thread for the HLS haters and defenders to hash out their usual disagreements.CicerBRo wrote:Would I be wrong if I posited that there's a little bit of bitterness in this thread directed at HLS students, that is not related to the discussion at hand? (*Winces and crouches in anticipation of angry peeps.*) About the same amount of HLS students pay sticker as CCN students or Stanford students. Why single out HLS as opposed to, say, Stanford? Just curious.
Wasn't referring to you, OP, just the horde of people after you who seemed to be singling out HLS for attack and ignoring schools like SLS which should be amenable to the very same arguments.LetsGoMets wrote:I singled out H when I started the thread because I was asking about my experience there. A lot of people took it as an attack on the school, which wasn't my goal, but it partially became a thread for the HLS haters and defenders to hash out their usual disagreements.CicerBRo wrote:Would I be wrong if I posited that there's a little bit of bitterness in this thread directed at HLS students, that is not related to the discussion at hand? (*Winces and crouches in anticipation of angry peeps.*) About the same amount of HLS students pay sticker as CCN students or Stanford students. Why single out HLS as opposed to, say, Stanford? Just curious.
Employment outcomes are materially different at HLS than SLS/YLS (and in many ways closer to Columbia than to SLS/YLS). I think many on this thread would acknowledge that it'd therefore be easier to justify debt for SLS/YLS than HLS when the alternative is Columbia.CicerBRo wrote:Wasn't referring to you, OP, just the horde of people after you who seemed to be singling out HLS for attack and ignoring schools like SLS which should be amenable to the very same arguments.LetsGoMets wrote:I singled out H when I started the thread because I was asking about my experience there. A lot of people took it as an attack on the school, which wasn't my goal, but it partially became a thread for the HLS haters and defenders to hash out their usual disagreements.CicerBRo wrote:Would I be wrong if I posited that there's a little bit of bitterness in this thread directed at HLS students, that is not related to the discussion at hand? (*Winces and crouches in anticipation of angry peeps.*) About the same amount of HLS students pay sticker as CCN students or Stanford students. Why single out HLS as opposed to, say, Stanford? Just curious.
Everything I'm saying I'd say to someone comparing e.g., a Darrow/a full ride at NU to a higher ranked school.CicerBRo wrote:Would I be wrong if I posited that there's a little bit of bitterness in this thread directed at HLS students, that is not related to the discussion at hand? (*Winces and crouches in anticipation of angry peeps.*) About the same amount of HLS students pay sticker as CCN students or Stanford students. Why single out HLS as opposed to, say, Stanford? Just curious.
^agree (acknowledging theres also a difference b/t Y and S)abl wrote:Employment outcomes are materially different at HLS than SLS/YLS (and in many ways closer to Columbia than to SLS/YLS). I think many on this thread would acknowledge that it'd therefore be easier to justify debt for SLS/YLS than HLS when the alternative is Columbia.CicerBRo wrote:Wasn't referring to you, OP, just the horde of people after you who seemed to be singling out HLS for attack and ignoring schools like SLS which should be amenable to the very same arguments.LetsGoMets wrote:I singled out H when I started the thread because I was asking about my experience there. A lot of people took it as an attack on the school, which wasn't my goal, but it partially became a thread for the HLS haters and defenders to hash out their usual disagreements.CicerBRo wrote:Would I be wrong if I posited that there's a little bit of bitterness in this thread directed at HLS students, that is not related to the discussion at hand? (*Winces and crouches in anticipation of angry peeps.*) About the same amount of HLS students pay sticker as CCN students or Stanford students. Why single out HLS as opposed to, say, Stanford? Just curious.
Posts like this are confusing to 0Ls like myself. To make an informed decision about the debt load to take on for the more prestigious school, it is critical to know how much your school's reputation helps you advance x years after grad. Granted that is tough data to conclude but still conflicting anecdotes are troubling.BiglawAssociate wrote:I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.
I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?
None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.
Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, stuck in a shitty job, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the rare butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). (Most jobs in the legal profession are frankly shit.) The trust fund lawyers I know don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.
1) Nice avatarMozart Lacrimosa wrote:Posts like this are confusing to 0Ls like myself. To make an informed decision about the debt load to take on for the more prestigious school, it is critical to know how much your school's reputation helps you advance x years after grad. Granted that is tough data to conclude but still conflicting anecdotes are troubling.BiglawAssociate wrote:I don't think you get it - the only thing that really matters in the real world (besides health and family) is money. Money buys you freedom, health (work less/sleep more), and happiness (do whatever you want when you want). Nobody gives a crap where you went for school outside of mainly just your first job and nobody you work with will ask you where you went to law school. People in biglaw don't talk about that kind of shit. A "degree" means jack shit in the real world without money backing it up. Money is practical; the "prestige" of your degree is just bullshit.wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.
I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?
None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.
Also if you failed to realize - the only people willing to pay sticker at any law school are people who have never worked biglaw (and/or rich kids). I guarantee you'll change your tone in 4 years when you are working biglaw and wish you took the money. I frankly don't give a crap about what poors like you do who are too wrapped up in prestige to realize it doesn't matter, but stop giving bad advice to others. If you want to be poor for the next 10+ years of your life, stuck in a shitty job, be my guest, but don't give bad advice. I mean honestly, do you think you'll be the rare butterfly that "loves" the practice of law? Newsflash: The only people I know who enjoy practicing law are trust fund kids with no loans and can leave their job at any time (and as you might have figured, they aren't in biglaw but in jobs like public interest that pay shit, but they don't have to worry about money ever). (Most jobs in the legal profession are frankly shit.) The trust fund lawyers I know don't have the pressure of paying bills. If you have lots of money, you will likely live a much more stress free, happier life and then you can do whatever job you want.