What's the deal with Harvard students?

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wsag826
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby wsag826 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:13 am

If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.

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bruinfan10
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:24 am

wsag826 wrote:It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.

Easy there sparky. :lol:

Also, I'm blown away that this thread is still alive.

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:58 am

wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


0L, stop

Mal Reynolds
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:03 am

jbagelboy wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


0L, stop


And the cycle continues.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:04 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
wsag826 wrote:It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.

Easy there sparky. :lol:

Also, I'm blown away that this thread is still alive.


Agreed on all counts. As OP I think this thing has pretty much run its course. That said, I think there was a lot of interesting discussion on several topics of interest to 0Ls, so I think it was a useful exercise.

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:15 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


0L, stop


And the cycle continues.



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smaug
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:21 am

I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.

abl
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:05 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.


No. Paying $60,000 more to go to Harvard = two additional years of biglaw repayment or no years of biglaw and instead a career in a more rewarding job. That's the tradeoff. The question that we've now spent over ten pages debating is how significantly does HLS increase your chances of this latter preferable option (and how much additional debt that increase justifies). Everyone agrees that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome somewhat.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:09 pm

abl wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.


No. Paying $60,000 more to go to Harvard = two additional years of biglaw repayment or no years of biglaw and instead a career in a more rewarding job. That's the tradeoff. The question that we've now spent over ten pages debating is how significantly does HLS increase your chances of this latter preferable option (and how much additional debt that increase justifies). Everyone agrees that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome somewhat.


But like you said, we also agree that it's at least debatable what the magnitude of that increased probability is. Whatever it may be, the question of whether it's worth, say, $180,000 to you is I suppose the "personal" part of this decision.

I do feel like this discussion happened back on page 8 or something.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:12 pm

abl wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.


No. Paying $60,000 more to go to Harvard = two additional years of biglaw repayment or no years of biglaw and instead a career in a more rewarding job. That's the tradeoff. The question that we've now spent over ten pages debating is how significantly does HLS increase your chances of this latter preferable option (and how much additional debt that increase justifies). Everyone agrees that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome somewhat.


If you find a rewarding job you never work a day in your life. Teach a man to fish paying paying sticker price is all worth it!

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smaug
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:52 pm

abl wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.


No. Paying $60,000 more to go to Harvard = two additional years of biglaw repayment or no years of biglaw and instead a career in a more rewarding job. That's the tradeoff. The question that we've now spent over ten pages debating is how significantly does HLS increase your chances of this latter preferable option (and how much additional debt that increase justifies). Everyone agrees that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome somewhat.


I quarrel with the notion that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome for many/most of the students. Yeah, there's upside, but you need to discount it so much it's almost meaningless.

Take, for examples, clerkships—you clerk and then what? There are very few superlative outcomes in law, in general, so if you're returning to DPW after you clerk, the whole HARVARD ADVANTAGE seems like a joke to me.

But yeah, idiosyncratic values, &c. I just think there's a lot of post hoc rationalization for people pissing away money, and my point was more "sweet summer child, you have no idea what 60k more in debt really means."

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:18 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:
abl wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:I think it would be easier to explain why people are wrong about this stuff by putting it in terms of months required to work in biglaw to service the debt, as opposed to absolute dollars. People say "Oh, it's only 60k difference and I'm going to be six figures in debt either way. What's the real difference?"

The difference is about two years. Think about that. Two years difference in terms of when you feel "free." I'm sure someone will respond with "oh, but I'm going to live in Hoboken and eat ramen and pay off 50-60k a year!" Yeah, no. You won't. That's OK—hopefully you'll hack it long enough/learn to love it enough that you'll get some skills and make a dent in your debt before you leave. But even 60k is significant.

I totally lucked out with my aid package, and almost spent 65k+ more on a peer school. I frequently (like, seriously, once a week or so) think about how lucky I am that I didn't do that.

Don't do that, folks. Take the money and run.


No. Paying $60,000 more to go to Harvard = two additional years of biglaw repayment or no years of biglaw and instead a career in a more rewarding job. That's the tradeoff. The question that we've now spent over ten pages debating is how significantly does HLS increase your chances of this latter preferable option (and how much additional debt that increase justifies). Everyone agrees that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome somewhat.


I quarrel with the notion that HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome for many/most of the students. Yeah, there's upside, but you need to discount it so much it's almost meaningless.

Take, for examples, clerkships—you clerk and then what? There are very few superlative outcomes in law, in general, so if you're returning to DPW after you clerk, the whole HARVARD ADVANTAGE seems like a joke to me.

But yeah, idiosyncratic values, &c. I just think there's a lot of post hoc rationalization for people pissing away money, and my point was more "sweet summer child, you have no idea what 60k more in debt really means."


HLS increases the probability of a better job outcome for all students. E.g., whether you're #1 in the class, median, or last in your class, your chances of a better outcome are greater from HLS than Columbia.

The question is how much. We disagree on this, and I'm not sure there's more ground to cover on this thread on that subject (other than I think your position is incorrect and you think mine is incorrect). We each also obviously think the respective other is rationalizing his or her choices, and I don't think any more conclusory statements to that effect from either of us is going to change any more minds.

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Nebby
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Nebby » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:58 pm

Pretty sure the only advantage of HLS over CLS job outcomes is theoretical, considering for non-BigLaw jobs, there's so, so much more than solely the name on the diploma. A BigFed hire is going to take the T1 grad with demonstrated commitment to public service over the HLS grad who spent their summers masturbating to their PRESTIGE.

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acrossthelake
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:19 pm

CounselorNebby wrote:Pretty sure the only advantage of HLS over CLS job outcomes is theoretical, considering for non-BigLaw jobs, there's so, so much more than solely the name on the diploma. A BigFed hire is going to take the T1 grad with demonstrated commitment to public service over the HLS grad who spent their summers masturbating to their PRESTIGE.


That's not the useful comparison. Does a BigFed take the T1 or HLS grad when both demonstrate commitment to public service? Harvard places ppl into clerkships fairly well. There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads. It's arguably not worth spending sticker for the marginal advantage, but the marginal advantage is there.

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smaug
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:21 pm

acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.

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bearsfan23
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bearsfan23 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:27 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.


Yeah, without an explanation, ATL is full of shit.

HYS may students "think" jobs are only offered to them, but in reality no employer is going to take a bottom 10% kid from Harvard over the EIC of the Columbia Law Review

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:29 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.



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lapolicia
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby lapolicia » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:31 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.


Yeah, without an explanation, ATL is full of shit.

HYS may students "think" jobs are only offered to them, but in reality no employer is going to take a bottom 10% kid from Harvard over the EIC of the Columbia Law Review


Or, for that matter, a median Harvard kid over the EIC of the CLS Law Review.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:37 pm

lapolicia wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.


Yeah, without an explanation, ATL is full of shit.

HYS may students "think" jobs are only offered to them, but in reality no employer is going to take a bottom 10% kid from Harvard over the EIC of the Columbia Law Review


Or, for that matter, a median Harvard kid over the EIC of the CLS Law Review.


To be fair, the discussion is really about whether a median Harvard kid has a better shot at XYZ unicorn job than median CLS kid. Obviously people on law review at T6 schools are going to be much more equivalent.

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smaug
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:38 pm

Concretely, what are these unicorn jobs y'all are talking about?

If they're really unicorn jobs, you're not getting them from median at either school. That's my point.

There are very, very few superlative outcomes in law school.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:43 pm

CounselorNebby wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
wsag826 wrote:If money is all you are concerned about...and all you will ever be concerned about...you might as well quit while you are ahead. Stop making payments on everything, close all of your bank accounts, and go rogue in some cabin in Wyoming and hide all of your money in your mattress.

I mean, seriously...some of these issues seem like personal problems. Your hours are too long? You're bummed by the COL in Manhattan? You hate your job as a lawyer?

None of these scenarios are valid reasons to suggest that someone, under no circumstances, should incur big debt to pursue the career of their dreams. Some of you who chase dollars literally seem like miserable people, who seem not to like any part of the profession of law but merely have done it for the dollar signs and thus cannot see anything else. But that is your prerogative. In any case, it validates the crux of my earlier argument: basing your entire decision to pursue law on the cost of attendance has got to be one of the biggest mistakes you can make. You can spend decades of your life rationalizing how much money you saved or how you beat "Boomer mentality" by refusing YHS at sticker or how you ended up exactly where you wanted to be or how you would've gone to H had you not gone to NYU. But all of these things are merely little tidbits of your life that do not make a person happy or proud of their career and accomplishments. If you feel you only need a Pepperdine degree to be the kind of lawyer you want to be, so be it. Or if you feel that all you need is a Duke degree to do well, so be it. But if you are staring down a YHS offer at sticker that you want...and rationalizing picking another school because it's cheaper...then all you are doing is robbing yourself of what you really want. And what you really want is not some kind of poison or death trap. It's a degree from a T3 law school, one of the most coveted things in the world.


0L, stop


And the cycle continues.



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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:47 pm

ATL sounds like she's just talking about generic job postings. "We'lllonly take top ten percent and law review here at Ampersand & Ampersand. Also only HYS students need apply."

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:18 pm

Abl, I agree this thread is dead but explain that to us. Median at both schools will summer at some good firm. #1 at both schools can do whatever they want, probably COA-> scotus -> fellowship or lit boutique. Bottom person at both is most likely either at a very unselective firm or unemployed. I see zero difference in individual outcomes at those levels. The distinction occurs in murkier places in ranges.

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:20 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.



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There have been as many Columbia law presidents as Yale or Harvard (and 2 more than Stanford). The current president graduated from columbia college. CLS grads litter every echelon of gov't from attorney general on down

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:27 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:There js also the occasional job opportunity I've seen only offered to YHS grads.

Describe and quantify this please. I'm not saying it's totally unreal, but I'm saying it's almost entirely unreal.


Its like how Quinn Emmanuel says "only top 10% need apply," but they take top 40% from CLS




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