What's the deal with Harvard students?

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:16 pm

rpupkin wrote:
yomisterd wrote:OP still didn't explain his illogical support of the Mets and why he doesn't apply similar illogic to LS decision.

Yeah, we got it the first time, yomisterd. It's not clever/funny enough to merit repeating again several pages later.


Simmer down, Pupkin. For the record, I did explain back on page 3 or something. Rooting for the Mets only costs me emotionally, not financially (although boy is the emotional cost rough, I freely admit that).

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:17 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:Just for clarity, I'm pretty sure 13 is the number of current students receiving greater than half tuition scholarships at Columbia, as reported on the school's 509. It's hard to say how many people are offered Hamiltons every year, but based on the sample on LSN over the past few years, it's probably many more than 13. It's just that only 3-4 per year seem to take it (13 divided across 3 classes).

No question. Even full rides at T-14 schools don't do a good job of pulling people away from HYS.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:21 pm

abl wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Yeah I think the takeaway is that the demographic makeup of most of the top schools is pretty similar. Plenty of rich people at each one who are just going to the top option, but most students are still taking out large loans.


Similar, but not identical. Because of the whole need v. merit scholarship thing, graduating HYS debt free indicates a level of wealth that graduating CCN debt free doesn't.

Which reinforces a point I made a while ago, to the extent that HYS grads do get better outcomes more frequently than CCN grads, it's very difficult to sort out how much of that is because of the HYS brand and how much is because HYS tend to get students with more usefule backgrounds for unicorn job hiring. Like, the 21% of H students who didn't take out loans for law school probably had very good networks in place before they even took the LSAT.

Edit regarding your edit regarding his edit: I didn't realize that it was only 3% at Columbia. I think there's about 10-12 Rubys at Chicago (could be wrong), which is 5-6% of the class.


I don't understand your point -- if anything, wouldn't it cut toward there being more ultra wealthy people at Columbia? Presumably, there are a number of folks at Columbia each year who have 0 loans because they got full COA scholarships, but would have had 0 loans even without the full scholarship (e.g., people who had families who could afford to cover full cost, but didn't have to given the scholarships).

Also, if CLS gives almost no aid above half a ride, this whole discussion seems pretty misleading -- the total possible number of students who are actually deciding between Columbia at 0 and Harvard at ~$250,000 cannot be greater than 13. Almost certainly, some of those 13 will also have gotten into Yale and/or Stanford, some of those 13 won't have gotten into any of HYS, some of those 13 will be sufficiently wealthy that they won't have to take out the full amount in loans, and some of those 13 will have received need-based aid at one of HYS. Therefore, we may really just be talking about <5 people each year (and in some years potentially no people).

Finally, these numbers seem to imply that for the remaining 30 or 40 (or whatever) people choosing between Harvard and Columbia each year, the COA difference is much smaller (and often makes Harvard the cheaper of the two?)?

Re the Chicago full ride poster: do you mean full tuition scholly or full COA scholly? That's a big difference (and I think really only the latter should be called a "full ride.").



1) It seems like Columbia may be a different beast than Chicago or NYU when it comes to wealthy students. Still, I don't think you're right. Sure... some of the students who get $$ at C won't need it. But, assuming the need based math is right... 100% of the students at HYS who are graduating debt free are getting 0 aid.

2) In order to actually give 13 Hamiltons, Columbia has to offer more than 13. Still, I agree were talking about a tiny number of people if we're talking H v. Hamilton. The discussion is more relevant if we're framing it as H v. full-ride at any T-14.

3) The Ruby gives a stipend + full tuition. So it might not cover full COA, but it comes pretty close, especially if you include the guaranteed $5,000 Chicago gives 1Ls for their first summer and SA money over the second summer. I think it's pretty clear (and makes sense if you think about it) that Chicago attracts a smaller number of ultra-wealthy people than Columbia or HYS. Definitely > 0 though.

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:40 pm

CicerBRo wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:CicerBro: just curious, which one's the "fake" upper middle class and which is the "real" one of which you are a set?

Many students are absurdly wealthy at top law programs. Most of the people I know went abroad for spring break.

Honestly, if we're going to play the awesome law school game, I've definitely had pretty unique opportunities at my law school that I can safely attribute to attending that law school, including connections among other privileges. I'd place them on par with anyone else's at another top program. There are also some pretty shitty parts of my law school, as there are at all others.


Fake upper middle class is peeps who make like 300,000 and up who claim to be middle class. I don't wanna go into details but I would say my approximation of real upper middle class is in the 100,000-150,000 range. Obviously this depends on what region of the country you are in.

Yeah, tons of law schools have great opportunities like HLS.But I had a few opportunities here (including people I've met) that I wouldn't have had elsewhere; granted, I also chose HLS over YLS, which is something most people don't do either ... so maybe I'm just a hardcore outlier. I had many personal reasons that contributed to my decision to choose HLS.

TL;DR of my opinion: Lots of people at HLS are super wealthy and their parents are paying for everything. That said, in my humble opinion, if you are like me and still have to take out tons of loans to attend HLS, it can be worth it, but it is (admittedly) risky. Thus, your preference comes down to whether you are risk-averse or risk-accepting.


okay so we agree, you didn't strike me as a nutjob.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:58 pm

Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:05 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.

Interesting story, but I highly doubt it's representative. You friend's parent must have scrupulously saved for years and/or lived very cheaply. After taxes, mortgage (or rent) payments, medical expenses, transportation, and food, it's a little hard to see how your friend's single parent had tens of thousands of dollars left over to pay for HLS tuition.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:46 pm

rpupkin wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.

Interesting story, but I highly doubt it's representative. You friend's parent must have scrupulously saved for years and/or lived very cheaply. After taxes, mortgage (or rent) payments, medical expenses, transportation, and food, it's a little hard to see how your friend's single parent had tens of thousands of dollars left over to pay for HLS tuition.


I mean, obviously said friend didn't grow up in NYC or SF, etc. where COL is high, but that sort of salary goes fairly far in most parts of the U.S. if you're fairly scrupulous and healthy (medical expenses can add up fast). Tbf, I think the friend also said they basically didn't go on family vacations ever growing up, so that def. adds up in savings. I have friends from college who ended up in the same region, and they report being able to save a lot every month making a similar salary. My main point is that just because someone's parents are paying for law school, it doesn't mean they come from a very rich background where the cost is a drop in the bucket. By the time people are going to law school, their parents have probably been part of the workforce for at least 22 years. That's a lot of time to build up savings and investments. Some families, esp. some immigrant cultures, really value education, and are quick to spend money on a law degree. Asian cultures, in particular, tend to have an expectation that the child will then turn around and take care of the parents in retirement.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:19 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.

Interesting story, but I highly doubt it's representative. You friend's parent must have scrupulously saved for years and/or lived very cheaply. After taxes, mortgage (or rent) payments, medical expenses, transportation, and food, it's a little hard to see how your friend's single parent had tens of thousands of dollars left over to pay for HLS tuition.


I mean, obviously said friend didn't grow up in NYC or SF, etc. where COL is high, but that sort of salary goes fairly far in most parts of the U.S. if you're fairly scrupulous and healthy (medical expenses can add up fast). Tbf, I think the friend also said they basically didn't go on family vacations ever growing up, so that def. adds up in savings. I have friends from college who ended up in the same region, and they report being able to save a lot every month making a similar salary. My main point is that just because someone's parents are paying for law school, it doesn't mean they come from a very rich background where the cost is a drop in the bucket. By the time people are going to law school, their parents have probably been part of the workforce for at least 22 years. That's a lot of time to build up savings and investments. Some families, esp. some immigrant cultures, really value education, and are quick to spend money on a law degree. Asian cultures, in particular, tend to have an expectation that the child will then turn around and take care of the parents in retirement.


Yea my asian friends are far more likely to receive help from their parents in their 20s. But for many of us, it's not just about whether the money is there, or whether our families could save for it. As I said earlier, it feels wrong to be taking so much money from my parents at our age (24-27); college, sure, but graduate school or rent or living costs as young adults. Many parents have younger children or want to use their money and hard earned savings in other ways. I would only take hundreds of thousands of dollars from my aging parents if it was truly nominal to them.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bklynlady » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:20 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.

Interesting story, but I highly doubt it's representative. You friend's parent must have scrupulously saved for years and/or lived very cheaply. After taxes, mortgage (or rent) payments, medical expenses, transportation, and food, it's a little hard to see how your friend's single parent had tens of thousands of dollars left over to pay for HLS tuition.


I mean, obviously said friend didn't grow up in NYC or SF, etc. where COL is high, but that sort of salary goes fairly far in most parts of the U.S. if you're fairly scrupulous and healthy (medical expenses can add up fast). Tbf, I think the friend also said they basically didn't go on family vacations ever growing up, so that def. adds up in savings. I have friends from college who ended up in the same region, and they report being able to save a lot every month making a similar salary. My main point is that just because someone's parents are paying for law school, it doesn't mean they come from a very rich background where the cost is a drop in the bucket. By the time people are going to law school, their parents have probably been part of the workforce for at least 22 years. That's a lot of time to build up savings and investments. Some families, esp. some immigrant cultures, really value education, and are quick to spend money on a law degree. Asian cultures, in particular, tend to have an expectation that the child will then turn around and take care of the parents in retirement.

I think every family whose child has excelled enough to be accepted at YHS, CCN, and probably most other law schools "really value education" whatever culture they are, immigrant or not.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:36 pm

bklynlady wrote:I think every family whose child has excelled enough to be accepted at YHS, CCN, and probably most other law schools "really value education" whatever culture they are, immigrant or not.

You'd be surprised. I went to one of those schools (for law school) and my parents basically didn't care if their kids went to college. They provided no financial support for me and my siblings in undergrad, even though they could have afforded to contribute a decent chunk of the cost of attendance. They definitely didn't contribute to law school. Yeah, plenty--probably most--of the kids at YHS have well-off parents who also went to top schools, and there are definitely poorer immigrant parents who highly value secondary education even though they didn't have that opportunity themselves, but there are more than a few of us from non-immigrant families who decided to gun for things in spite of our parents' middle class apathy.

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Re: What's the alyl deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Virtually nobody who is making 85k have 250k in disposable assets or income to toss at their kids law school.

And if these are asians, they are just blowing their retirement for their kids with the expectation that the kids will fund them.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:57 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Yea my asian friends are far more likely to receive help from their parents in their 20s. But for many of us, it's not just about whether the money is there, or whether our families could save for it. As I said earlier, it feels wrong to be taking so much money from my parents at our age (24-27); college, sure, but graduate school or rent or living costs as young adults. Many parents have younger children or want to use their money and hard earned savings in other ways. I would only take hundreds of thousands of dollars from my aging parents if it was truly nominal to them.


I mean the gamble with this approach is the possibility the child ends up for some reason not being able to earn money later (health issues, the great depression hits, etc.) or is an asshole, but the idea isn't so much that you take it from them and then la di da you're on your way. There's an expectation that the person then turns around and funds the parent's retirement.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bklynlady » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:
bklynlady wrote:I think every family whose child has excelled enough to be accepted at YHS, CCN, and probably most other law schools "really value education" whatever culture they are, immigrant or not.

You'd be surprised. I went to one of those schools (for law school) and my parents basically didn't care if their kids went to college. They provided no financial support for me and my siblings in undergrad, even though they could have afforded to contribute a decent chunk of the cost of attendance. They definitely didn't contribute to law school. Yeah, plenty--probably most--of the kids at YHS have well-off parents who also went to top schools, and there are definitely poorer immigrant parents who highly value secondary education even though they didn't have that opportunity themselves, but there are more than a few of us from non-immigrant families who decided to gun for things in spite of our parents' middle class apathy.

I am surprised and kudos to you for achieving despite the lack of familial support. And I mean emotional support, not financial. I know people whose parents are very successful business people without a formal education and therefore discourage their children from higher education and feel that those who do are "chumps". They are only satisfied with money and see no other reason to pursue an education.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:22 pm

CicerBRo wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:CicerBro: just curious, which one's the "fake" upper middle class and which is the "real" one of which you are a set?

Many students are absurdly wealthy at top law programs. Most of the people I know went abroad for spring break.

Honestly, if we're going to play the awesome law school game, I've definitely had pretty unique opportunities at my law school that I can safely attribute to attending that law school, including connections among other privileges. I'd place them on par with anyone else's at another top program. There are also some pretty shitty parts of my law school, as there are at all others.


Fake upper middle class is peeps who make like 300,000 and up who claim to be middle class. I don't wanna go into details but I would say my approximation of real upper middle class is in the 100,000-150,000 range. Obviously this depends on what region of the country you are in.

Yeah, tons of law schools have great opportunities like HLS.But I had a few opportunities here (including people I've met) that I wouldn't have had elsewhere; granted, I also chose HLS over YLS, which is something most people don't do either ... so maybe I'm just a hardcore outlier. I had many personal reasons that contributed to my decision to choose HLS.

TL;DR of my opinion: Lots of people at HLS are super wealthy and their parents are paying for everything. That said, in my humble opinion, if you are like me and still have to take out tons of loans to attend HLS, it can be worth it, but it is (admittedly) risky. Thus, your preference comes down to whether you are risk-averse or risk-accepting.


You guys aren't accounting for COL and geographical differences. I am from one of the most expensive places in the country, and not in the boonies of Kansas or Texas where it's cheap as sh*t to live. So having a 1 million dollar home and a six figure (less than 300k though) salary doesn't mean you are upper middle class at all where I am from. It's solidly middle class because that's what it takes to live there. Just like if you live in NYC - 1 million ain't sh*t. It probably takes minimum 1 million to buy a remotely livable apartment that's the size of a closet. And if you make less than 100k in NYC, good luck. You'll be living like a welfare mom. The distinction of upper middle class should be drawn based on where you live. Not everyone is from bumblef*ck Virginia.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby skers » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm

The lack of perspective on what is actually wealthy on TLS is remarkable sometimes.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm

skers wrote:The lack of perspective on what is actually wealthy on TLS is remarkable sometimes.


Geographical differences...I didn't grow up in bumblef*ck Virginia.

And now I live in another really expensive place, and we make over 300k combined but it doesn't do sh*t if you want to buy property. We can't buy a place on our own without familial help because an apartment costs minimum 1.5 million and it's a crappy, small tiny apartment. You need to put like 300-400k down on a lot of apartments. You can't pay for sh*t as a lawyer because lawyers don't make THAT much money.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby skers » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:31 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
skers wrote:The lack of perspective on what is actually wealthy on TLS is remarkable sometimes.


Geographical differences...I didn't grow up in bumblef*ck Virginia.

And now I live in another really expensive place, and we make over 300k combined but it doesn't do sh*t if you want to buy property. We can't buy a place on our own without familial help because an apartment costs minimum 1.5 million and it's a crappy, small tiny apartment. You need to put like 300-400k down on a lot of apartments. You can't pay for sh*t as a lawyer because lawyers don't make THAT much money.


Perspective, bro.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:32 pm

skers wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
skers wrote:The lack of perspective on what is actually wealthy on TLS is remarkable sometimes.


Geographical differences...I didn't grow up in bumblef*ck Virginia.

And now I live in another really expensive place, and we make over 300k combined but it doesn't do sh*t if you want to buy property. We can't buy a place on our own without familial help because an apartment costs minimum 1.5 million and it's a crappy, small tiny apartment. You need to put like 300-400k down on a lot of apartments. You can't pay for sh*t as a lawyer because lawyers don't make THAT much money.


Perspective, bro.


I'm GTFO-ing out of this expensive place relatively soonish because I realize if you aren't in finance making big money, you can't survive here.

We can get a huge place out in the burbs somewhere for 400k. You can't buy sh*t in a big city unless you are a multi millionaire and/or family helps. I'm telling you guys - lawyers don't really make that much, especially taking into account the super high COL where you have to work. This is why I find it funny when 0Ls talk about taking out huge loans to work a crappy job that pays relatively sh*t compared to the high COL and how much sweat/time you have to put into it.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:39 pm

BiglawAssociate can you just DIAF already? Why do you post here?

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:39 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Depending on how your parents managed their assets and spending, and how generous they are, and whether you're an only child, etc. said parents don't have to be extremely wealthy to afford law school. I had a friend whose single parent made around 80-90K/year (no spousal support or wealthy ex-spouse) and was able to pay for all of law school minus the money my friend made during the summers.


??? Probably inherited money.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:41 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:BiglawAssociate can you just DIAF already? Why do you post here?


Because 0Ls need a good dose of reality on here - nobody on here has ever worked biglaw or apparently managed their own money.

"Just take out 200k loans work 5 years biglaw no big deal. biglaw is easy am i rite"

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:44 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:BiglawAssociate can you just DIAF already? Why do you post here?


Because 0Ls need a good dose of reality on here - nobody on here has ever worked biglaw or apparently managed their own money.

"Just take out 200k loans work 5 years biglaw no big deal. biglaw is easy am i rite"

So, you bragging about how much money you have and how you've married into even more money also helps?

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:47 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:BiglawAssociate can you just DIAF already? Why do you post here?


Because 0Ls need a good dose of reality on here - nobody on here has ever worked biglaw or apparently managed their own money.

"Just take out 200k loans work 5 years biglaw no big deal. biglaw is easy am i rite"

So, you bragging about how much money you have and how you've married into even more money also helps?


I'm not bragging about how much money I have since I don't have that much money. I'm a lawyer remember - we get paid crap for the high COL, have to live in a high COL, had to pay for school, etc.

As for marrying into more money than I could have ever made in my entire life in biglaw - that's again, to show that lawyers make crap money in comparison to finance/business owners/business people. This profession is just balls. I don't get why people on here idolize biglaw - it for the most part sucks big balls and you won't even be well compensated compared to finance/business/business owners.

You 0Ls should do something else with your life, instead of throw 200k down the drain for a crappy profession/job that you will likely hate.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:52 pm

So everyone can just retroactively get a finance degree from Princeton and walk into Goldman Sachs and call it a day? There's some good shit to what you're saying, but it's drowned out by your flagrant disregard for tact and reality.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:58 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
skers wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
skers wrote:The lack of perspective on what is actually wealthy on TLS is remarkable sometimes.


Geographical differences...I didn't grow up in bumblef*ck Virginia.

And now I live in another really expensive place, and we make over 300k combined but it doesn't do sh*t if you want to buy property. We can't buy a place on our own without familial help because an apartment costs minimum 1.5 million and it's a crappy, small tiny apartment. You need to put like 300-400k down on a lot of apartments. You can't pay for sh*t as a lawyer because lawyers don't make THAT much money.


Perspective, bro.


I'm GTFO-ing out of this expensive place relatively soonish because I realize if you aren't in finance making big money, you can't survive here.

We can get a huge place out in the burbs somewhere for 400k. You can't buy sh*t in a big city unless you are a multi millionaire and/or family helps. I'm telling you guys - lawyers don't really make that much, especially taking into account the super high COL where you have to work. This is why I find it funny when 0Ls talk about taking out huge loans to work a crappy job that pays relatively sh*t compared to the high COL and how much sweat/time you have to put into it.

But lawyers still make a shitload more than a lot of people.




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