What's the deal with Harvard students?

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eph
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby eph » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:08 pm

LetsGoMets

OP some decisions defy rational explanations. In spite of all the evidence. Against all the logic. Regardless of the fact that your mind screams not to do it. Your friends beg you not to. Those who love you want you to get help. TLS questions your sanity and tells you that you will live to regret it. Against all odds you are forced to make a decision that no rational being would ever make. Don't make that bad decision. Step back from the brink.

In the end you can't help it...you are going to root for the Mets and the rest of the world can go to hell. After that choosing a law school should be easy.

lefthandofdarkness
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby lefthandofdarkness » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:43 pm

eph wrote:LetsGoMets

OP some decisions defy rational explanations. In spite of all the evidence. Against all the logic. Regardless of the fact that your mind screams not to do it. Your friends beg you not to. Those who love you want you to get help. TLS questions your sanity and tells you that you will live to regret it. Against all odds you are forced to make a decision that no rational being would ever make. Don't make that bad decision. Step back from the brink.

In the end you can't help it...you are going to root for the Mets and the rest of the world can go to hell. After that choosing a law school should be easy.


The knowledge that I almost definitely shared a campus with you for a couple of years and probably had a conversation with you is pretty discomfiting.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:47 pm

Talk to them after they're 6 months into biglaw

Mal Reynolds
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:50 pm

This thread should be about how Harvard students are the worst.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:23 pm

eph wrote:LetsGoMets

OP some decisions defy rational explanations. In spite of all the evidence. Against all the logic. Regardless of the fact that your mind screams not to do it. Your friends beg you not to. Those who love you want you to get help. TLS questions your sanity and tells you that you will live to regret it. Against all odds you are forced to make a decision that no rational being would ever make. Don't make that bad decision. Step back from the brink.

In the end you can't help it...you are going to root for the Mets and the rest of the world can go to hell. After that choosing a law school should be easy.


Ooof, well played. At least being a Mets fan only costs me emotionally and not financially though.

Saw you posted in another thread today that you turned down your Hamilton. What was your reasoning? Feel free to PM.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:44 pm

yot11 wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:When you subtract (parents paying) and (no T14 full rides/huge schollys) and (PI/gov focus) from the group of students here there are definitely some students left. But there really are not that many. The pardigmatic idiot 0L (debt-financing, full ride at CCN, wants generic NY Biglaw) probably exists. I haven't met anyone who meets that profile though. There are for sure people here who should have gone somewhere else, but its not everyone.


This. I would also speculate that this is true at basically any school in the T14 and not just Harvard. People with parents paying (large chunk), people with no big $$$ offers (splitters), and people who plan on riding LRAP into the sunset probably account for 90% of the class.


This definitely makes sense, although I was surprised to see on HLS' 509 that half of students this year are getting grants, including almost 15% getting more than half tuition. Not sure exactly where the income/asset cutoff is to qualify but it's certainly well below the point where parents could be paying (by definition), and probably below the point where they could act as much of a safety net too. I guess if you assume much of that group didn't have other T14 full rides, making H the clear winner for them, and add that to the group whose parents are paying, along with the PI people, that does take care of a substantial portion of the class. I have no trouble believing that the group of people I met (oops, humblebragging) were not a random sample -- but I was still blown away how many people in a row told me me they turned down CCN full rides and encouraged me to do the same, and how aggressive they were about it.

For the record, I am definitely more PI/gov focused, and would rather do pretty much anything over NYC biglaw, but in my mind the advantage Harvard gives in that area isn't worth $180k over Columbia, even with H's pretty good LRAP.

lefthandofdarkness
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby lefthandofdarkness » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:
yot11 wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:When you subtract (parents paying) and (no T14 full rides/huge schollys) and (PI/gov focus) from the group of students here there are definitely some students left. But there really are not that many. The pardigmatic idiot 0L (debt-financing, full ride at CCN, wants generic NY Biglaw) probably exists. I haven't met anyone who meets that profile though. There are for sure people here who should have gone somewhere else, but its not everyone.


This. I would also speculate that this is true at basically any school in the T14 and not just Harvard. People with parents paying (large chunk), people with no big $$$ offers (splitters), and people who plan on riding LRAP into the sunset probably account for 90% of the class.


This definitely makes sense, although I was surprised to see on HLS' 509 that half of students this year are getting grants, including almost 15% getting more than half tuition. Not sure exactly where the income/asset cutoff is to qualify but it's certainly well below the point where parents could be paying (by definition), and probably below the point where they could act as much of a safety net too. I guess if you assume much of that group didn't have other T14 full rides, making H the clear winner for them, and add that to the group whose parents are paying, along with the PI people, that does take care of a substantial portion of the class. I have no trouble believing that the group of people I met (oops, humblebragging) were not a random sample -- but I was still blown away how many people in a row told me me they turned down CCN full rides and encouraged me to do the same, and how aggressive they were about it.

For the record, I am definitely more PI/gov focused, and would rather do pretty much anything over NYC biglaw, but in my mind the advantage Harvard gives in that area isn't worth $180k over Columbia, even with H's pretty good LRAP.


Did you get JS's email asking if those of us looking at merit scholarships from other schools wanted to be put in touch with more of those aggressive Harvard gunners who will tell us why Harvard is worth $180k more than Columbia?

ryangreenspan
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby ryangreenspan » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:01 am

flockavelli wrote:Well there's obviously a survivorship bias - almost defintely the majority of H students could have gone to a solid law school for free, the ones that are there are those that didn't take those offers. If you're wondering what that selects on, it's probably a risk-seeking temperament. Gambling $300,000 for a greater chance of the outcomes that people actually want out of law school. TLS skews the other way, towards risk aversion, so the two groups are going to have differing opinions as to what the right decision is.

The expected value of a CCN degree with no debt is probably higher than H with hundos in debt, but not necessarily the expected utility. Realistically, a lot of students probably have utility curves which place disproportionate emphasis on relatively unlikely outcomes, and are willing to take risks to maximize expected utility while sacrificing expected value. H increases the odds of those disproportionately valuable outcomes over CCN. Those are the people that take H (higher than 50% yield, so not insubstantial). Expected value maximizers follow the money.


Great post, are you an econ major? This answer is so on point it just made my day. But the difference between risk loving people and risk averse people lies in their marginal utility curves. Risk lovers have an increasing marginal utility for money, risk haters have a decreasing marginal utility for money. Risk neutral actors are the ones that "follow the money" - their marginal utility for money is constant.

If you asked someone who was risk averse to choose between a coin flip where they got $100 if heads or $200 if tails, or a sure deal where they got $149 straight up, the person would choose the $149 even though it does not maximize expected value. The risk lover would choose the coin flip even if the sure deal was $151. The risk neutral player would maximize expected value and choose the coin flip in the first scenario and the sure deal in the second.
This explains why some on TLS say don't go anywhere where you don't get $$$$$ - they're very risk averse and are not maximizing expected utility but are saying "get a high probability of a modest outcome."

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Helioze
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Helioze » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:05 am

The coin flip analogy isn't that great in this context.

All things being equal, yes your categorizations of the different types of people might be accurate, but for some 300k of debt could be almost impossible to get out from underneath.

I don't think games with extreme risk correctly categorize "risk lovers" and the other types as well as low monetary ones.

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bearsfan23
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:10 am

ryangreenspan wrote:
flockavelli wrote:Well there's obviously a survivorship bias - almost defintely the majority of H students could have gone to a solid law school for free, the ones that are there are those that didn't take those offers. If you're wondering what that selects on, it's probably a risk-seeking temperament. Gambling $300,000 for a greater chance of the outcomes that people actually want out of law school. TLS skews the other way, towards risk aversion, so the two groups are going to have differing opinions as to what the right decision is.

The expected value of a CCN degree with no debt is probably higher than H with hundos in debt, but not necessarily the expected utility. Realistically, a lot of students probably have utility curves which place disproportionate emphasis on relatively unlikely outcomes, and are willing to take risks to maximize expected utility while sacrificing expected value. H increases the odds of those disproportionately valuable outcomes over CCN. Those are the people that take H (higher than 50% yield, so not insubstantial). Expected value maximizers follow the money.


Great post, are you an econ major? This answer is so on point it just made my day. But the difference between risk loving people and risk averse people lies in their marginal utility curves. Risk lovers have an increasing marginal utility for money, risk haters have a decreasing marginal utility for money. Risk neutral actors are the ones that "follow the money" - their marginal utility for money is constant.

If you asked someone who was risk averse to choose between a coin flip where they got $100 if heads or $200 if tails, or a sure deal where they got $149 straight up, the person would choose the $149 even though it does not maximize expected value. The risk lover would choose the coin flip even if the sure deal was $151. The risk neutral player would maximize expected value and choose the coin flip in the first scenario and the sure deal in the second.
This explains why some on TLS say don't go anywhere where you don't get $$$$$ - they're very risk averse and are not maximizing expected utility but are saying "get a high probability of a modest outcome."


Given that most people at H will go into BigLaw, this is absurdly dumb

The idea that H substantially increases your BigLaw odds over any of the CCN is laughable. There might be a slight boost, but its certainly not significant and I've never seen anyone provide any data that shows otherwise.

So if your goal is a $160K job, taking on substantial extra debt just to arrive at the same outcome is just stupid. Then again, hundreds of Harvard students do it every year so they can say they attended H

flockavelli
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby flockavelli » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:41 am

bearsfan23 wrote:Given that most people at H will go into BigLaw, this is absurdly dumb

The idea that H substantially increases your BigLaw odds over any of the CCN is laughable. There might be a slight boost, but its certainly not significant and I've never seen anyone provide any data that shows otherwise.

So if your goal is a $160K job, taking on substantial extra debt just to arrive at the same outcome is just stupid. Then again, hundreds of Harvard students do it every year so they can say they attended H



Nah bro you are assuming their goals a priori are to go into BigLaw. I bet MOST H students come in wanting outcomes like clerkships, academia, prestigious public service work etc. Sure most of them end up in BigLaw, but most of them are not in the top 20% of their class. Students are accepting the risk of a BigLaw career with debt (so essentially a $300,000 loss assuming complete debt financing and that BigLaw outcomes are a wash between CCN merit recipients and H students in BigLaw), for improved odds while competing in a tournament for the cool law outcomes that people actually want to do. Sure most of them lose and end up in BigLaw, obviously some wanted BigLaw from the beginning, but the majority did not go to H because of the increased returns from BigLaw, rather they are going because they see it as a substantial leg up in the tournament for cool law outcomes. It's a gamble.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:38 am

^citation needed for that one, doubt most of the class goes in wanting a specific unicorn job

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:50 am

in Harvard's defense, this isn't just Harvard students. I heard CLS students at ASW talking about how they took the school over full rides or near full rides at Cornell or Northwestern, which is a similarly stupefying choice. And I'm sure people take lower T14s over full rides at their strong regional and justify it at ASW as well.

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star fox
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby star fox » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:09 am

lots of people pay sticker everywhere. Don't be one of them.

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yot11
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby yot11 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:20 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:^citation needed for that one, doubt most of the class goes in wanting a specific unicorn job


You'd be surprised. I knew two people from my school that went to law school. I asked them what area they wanted to work in and both said (without hesitation) constitutional law. One is at Stanford and the other is at Harvard.

Also at H's ASW, I'd say 8/10 people I talked to wanted to do some variation of PI/"policy" work. No one explicitly said ACLU or appellate litigation or anything, but definitely a different mindset than you'd think, given the fact that almost all these kids will end up in biglaw anyways.

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downbeat14
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby downbeat14 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:24 am

star fox wrote:lots of people pay sticker everywhere. Don't be one of them.


This 100%!!!

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metroidbum
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby metroidbum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:40 am

jbagelboy wrote:in Harvard's defense, this isn't just Harvard students. I heard CLS students at ASW talking about how they took the school over full rides or near full rides at Cornell or Northwestern, which is a similarly stupefying choice. And I'm sure people take lower T14s over full rides at their strong regional and justify it at ASW as well.


This.

TLS likes to rag on Harvard kids because there's this assumption that everyone at H turned down a full ride at another T14 and that most kids at CCN and below are on scholarship.

When in fact many HYS students had only middling scholarship offers from CCN (and aid money from HYS/rich parents) and other T14's have similar percentages of students attending full freight.

Doesn't help that in recent years there have been several high profile Harvard-attending 0L's who were incredibly obnoxious/douchy.

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landshoes
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:58 am

Last edited by landshoes on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pneumonia
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:57 pm

I think its only like 20% come in wanting biglaw, but 80% end up going to biglaw. I read that somewhere a while back. Idk if it's true, but my experience certainly bears out that the initial number probably overstates the number of people who initially want Biglaw.

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jbagelboy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:11 pm

Pneumonia wrote:I think its only like 20% come in wanting biglaw, but 80% end up going to biglaw. I read that somewhere a while back. Idk if it's true, but my experience certainly bears out that the initial number probably overstates the number of people who initially want Biglaw.


It's not like harvard students are particularly fickle or anything. This is the same at many schools - a majority or plurality of students will enter with some discrete, lofty purpose (academic, ACLU litigator, BigFed, ICJ justice ).. And then comes OCI. Also, as at all schools with a majority students entering firms, their graduates will go on to government, business or academia after a short time. Starting at a firm doesn't doom all your long term career goals.

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yomisterd
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby yomisterd » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:33 pm

I would've taken the Hamilton if I got it. NYC is a great place to be and low debt frees up your options big time. I enjoy H a lot, but its not worth sacrificing future freedom.

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withoutapaddle
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby withoutapaddle » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:42 pm

On a real note, if the 4% increase keep happening your third year at Harvard will cost $91,936

The kids starting a year after you graduate are looking at $103,415.49 for one year. That blows my mind.


** I'd go to Columbia full ride. That way if you hate the law, you could always network yourself into IB.
Last edited by withoutapaddle on Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:On a real note, if the 4% increase keep happening your third year at Harvard will cost $91,936

The kids starting a year after you graduate are looking at $103,415.49 for one year. That blows my mind.


Gotdam

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withoutapaddle
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby withoutapaddle » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:51 pm

I apolgoize my model was off.

The starting class after you graduate is looking at 95,613.44. Their third year will cost 99,437.98 though.

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Pneumonia
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:56 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:I apolgoize my model was off.

The starting class after you graduate is looking at 95,613.44. Their third year will cost 99,437.98 though.


Yep. I get so mad when people here are like "It's not worth 150k to do X." It's not 150k anymore. 150k doesn't even cover tuition anymore. It's 250k.




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