What's the deal with Harvard students?

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LSATneurotic
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:20 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
LSATneurotic wrote:@ Fox

Not arguing for H over Hamilton. But doesn't YHS set you up for a firm where transitioning in-house is pretty much a done deal? Maybe I'm really naive (I am a 0L), but it's hard to envision too many YHS grads struggling to find employment that can cover their debt loads, even at full price. Maybe the really nerdy ones with no social skills (not an inconsiderable number, based on what I've seen, but still the minority.).

Columbia does too except for 200k less. The last person who should choose full loans at Harvard over a Hamilton is the one who wants biglaw to inhouse.

I was actually hoping to learn more about the transition to in-house. Obviously the Hamilton is a no-brainer in almost any situation.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:24 pm

1) I agree no more than CLS

2) Only for corporate lawyers. Litigators are fucked, HYS or otherwise. I'm sure there are HYS alumni sucking cock in Boston for a ROG response jerb after Goodwin pwnd them.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:1) I agree no more than CLS

2) Only for corporate lawyers. Litigators are fucked, HYS or otherwise. I'm sure there are HYS alumni sucking cock in Boston for a ROG response jerb after Goodwin pwnd them.


Disagree. There are obviously worse case scenarios out of everywhere, and probably no class year at any school truly has 0% underemployment, but I don't know a single litigator out of my HYS law school who didn't end up somewhere pretty legit post-biglaw. Sure, it's all anecdotal, but are there numbers for this? If not, my experience as a litigator is that the lateral market for biglaw litigator refuges isn't as great as it is for biglaw transactional refugees, but that there are nevertheless still plenty of decent opportunities open for someone with some flexibility. My intuition would be that there will be more opportunities for a HYS lateral than a Columbia lateral but I can't personally attest to that (nor, I assume, can you).

This is somewhat beyond the point as I don't think anyone is really arguing that the reason to go to Harvard over Columbia is so that when you wash out of biglaw you'll have a softer fall. For someone who plans on giving biglaw the ol' college try, Collumbia with substantially less debt is probably TCR. The point previously made re biglaw exit options had more to do with how big of a burden biglaw debt is -- and I do feel confident in saying that a top 6 law school litigator biglaw refugee is generally going to be able to find an acceptable non-biglaw job that pays sufficiently to service a fairly large debt load. The exceptions to this are going to be mostly for people who are personally unpleasant or horrendously unprofessional. And I'm not sure that's something that's worth hedging over.

Incidentally, are you in law school now? What's your background? You talk about this all too confidently and using too many absolutes to actually have any real years of practice under your belt. Apologies if I'm wrong.
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:12 pm

abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:1) I agree no more than CLS

2) Only for corporate lawyers. Litigators are fucked, HYS or otherwise. I'm sure there are HYS alumni sucking cock in Boston for a ROG response jerb after Goodwin pwnd them.


Disagree. There are obviously worse case scenarios out of everywhere, and probably no class year at any school truly has 0% underemployment, but I don't know a single litigator out of my HYS law school who didn't end up somewhere pretty legit post-biglaw.

Incidentally, are you in law school now? What's your background? You talk about this all too confidently and using too many absolutes to actually have any real years of practice under your belt. Apologies if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, he's pushing midlevel now. I think corp at a NYC megafirm, is that right? And I don't know how you can possibly try to make a claim about every litigator from your MASSIVE gtownesque class landing a great post biglaw job; that's borderline troll toll status. I have credentials that smoke the average HLS grad (although not as good as yours, I believe, so I'll defer to you on whether people at your level can consistently land unicorn jobs), and I'm seriously worried about where I'm gonna end up when I flame out of biglaw. With all due respect, I don't think DF's the one who needs to tone down his confidence level here.
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:14 pm

Serious 0L question: are there differences in the in-house opportunities for litigators vs deal-makers (pay, number of jobs, etc)?

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:16 pm

LSATneurotic wrote:Serious 0L question: are there differences in the in-house opportunities for litigators vs deal-makers (pay, number of jobs, etc)?

dear lord yes. they're not even in the same f'ing conversation. litigators can go in house but it's FAR rarer than a corp lawyer going in house. great lit exit options generally involve BigFed, some high quality state AG's offices, rare midlaw gigs, but more often people just keep plinko'ing down the vault megafirm ladder.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Fawkes » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:19 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
The debt is way worse than you'd think. Though there are several reasons why you might hear otherwise from people. If you are asking someone sufficiently older (even like 5th year+) their tuition was a lot lower than you would get now. I told a 5th year at my firm that I took out loans for my school and he said "so what like 150-160k in debt?" He was off by like 100k. And I started school over 4 years ago. Anyone starting in Fall 2015, will have way more debt than I do.

Wages have been statement and full fare debt loads are rising very quickly. The difference between someone with 150k debt in 2009 and someone with 300k debt in 2019 is way worse than double.

Also, almost nobody is actually paying off their debt quickly in big law. They are paying 10 year plan or sometimes even 20-25 year plans. But you won't get biglaw for that long. So yea, paying the ten year plan on biglaw salary isn't crushing, but what the fuck happens when your firm lays off 20% of your litigation group and you now have to take a MASSIVE paycut. That 2500 dollar a month loan bill is now too much to handle.

But, even if the debt is bearable (and again it really isn't), it still retarded to pay 2000 dollars a month more for a Harvard diploma than a Columbia diploma.


The people I talked to were graduates from 2010-2012. So, yes, their debt load was lower, and that's a good point. However, I wouldn't say the debt now is crushing, as it is often portrayed here. You will obviously have to live a more frugal lifestyle, and it would certainly be a burden, but not crushing.

I also wouldn't say it's "retarded" to pay for Harvard (or YS) over a full-ride at Columbia (or CCN in general). First of all, I'd try to avoid using that word in such a context, but that's a separate issue. This decision is an extremely personal one. Not everyone has the same priorities or considerations when choosing a school. People have different personal situations and different career goals, among other things. What makes sense for one person may be the less logical choice for another person. Just saying.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:20 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:1) I agree no more than CLS

2) Only for corporate lawyers. Litigators are fucked, HYS or otherwise. I'm sure there are HYS alumni sucking cock in Boston for a ROG response jerb after Goodwin pwnd them.


Disagree. There are obviously worse case scenarios out of everywhere, and probably no class year at any school truly has 0% underemployment, but I don't know a single litigator out of my HYS law school who didn't end up somewhere pretty legit post-biglaw.

Incidentally, are you in law school now? What's your background? You talk about this all too confidently and using too many absolutes to actually have any real years of practice under your belt. Apologies if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, he's pushing midlevel now. I think corp at a NYC megafirm, is that right? And I don't know how you can possibly try to make a claim about every litigator from your MASSIVE diploma-mill size class landing a great post biglaw job; you're troll tolling there way more than DF ever has (lol at least in this thread). I have credentials that smoke the average HLS grad, and I'm seriously worried about where I'm gonna end up when I flame out of biglaw. DF's not the one who needs to tone down his confidence level here.


I didn't make a claim about every litigator from my law school (nor have I ever said which of HYS I attended, but nice ad hominem attempt). I guess what I would say to you is that you really shouldn't worry. I've seen enough coworkers and friends go through it at this point to be pretty confident that there are plenty of exit options for litigators with sterling resumes willing to be somewhat flexible. You may have to hustle some and sweat some, but it'll work out.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:24 pm

2nd year in biglaw lit. I'm overstating how fucked we, but litigation is weak as hell right now. And being a second year I have no idea what it really going on. But I don't think the biglaw litigation model makes sense for most clients. There is no reason to pay our rates for anything that isn't bet the company lit.

There is a reason why Goodwin dumped 20% of their litigators yesterday. It's not pretty out there. Firms are looking to downsize their lit departments. The lateral market is shit.

People I work with who got stealthed over the winter still have no job at all (though some got other biglaw gigs). I know COA clerks who can't even lateral to be in the same city as their husband.

If you mean "sterling resumes" and "willing to be flexible" you mean willing to take massive pay cuts to work in a midlaw, yea I agree. Without debt that is probably better than biglaw, lifestyle wise. But not if you are trying to device 212k dollars of debt.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:24 pm

abl wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:1) I agree no more than CLS

2) Only for corporate lawyers. Litigators are fucked, HYS or otherwise. I'm sure there are HYS alumni sucking cock in Boston for a ROG response jerb after Goodwin pwnd them.


Disagree. There are obviously worse case scenarios out of everywhere, and probably no class year at any school truly has 0% underemployment, but I don't know a single litigator out of my HYS law school who didn't end up somewhere pretty legit post-biglaw.

Incidentally, are you in law school now? What's your background? You talk about this all too confidently and using too many absolutes to actually have any real years of practice under your belt. Apologies if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, he's pushing midlevel now. I think corp at a NYC megafirm, is that right? And I don't know how you can possibly try to make a claim about every litigator from your MASSIVE diploma-mill size class landing a great post biglaw job; you're troll tolling there way more than DF ever has (lol at least in this thread). I have credentials that smoke the average HLS grad, and I'm seriously worried about where I'm gonna end up when I flame out of biglaw. DF's not the one who needs to tone down his confidence level here.

I didn't make a claim about every litigator from my law school (nor have I ever said which of HYS I attended, but nice ad hominem attempt). I guess what I would say to you is that you really shouldn't worry. I've seen enough coworkers and friends go through it at this point to be pretty confident that there are plenty of exit options for litigators with sterling resumes willing to be somewhat flexible. You may have to hustle some and sweat some, but it'll work out.

I apologize, I thought someone in here said you were HLS--I actually do believe a YS grad could have an idea what their lit classmates were up to.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:28 pm

Also, I'll acknowledge that NYC may well be a different beast. My sense is that the city's legal culture is more intense, and given the higher COL, the balance between debt and jobs may well be different. For this, and for many other reasons, I'd advise students with options and without any particular affinity for the city to avoid it. (If you're a fan of NYC, more power to you--this is just one of the sacrifices that you're going to have to make to live and work in the city.)

Re flexibility, I do mean willing to work in midlaw (or to take other jobs at a lower salary). Maybe that's not really a financial option with NYC COL and $~200k in debt. It is, though, in much of the rest of the country. I think we can mostly agree that for someone whose goal is just to maximize their $$s, Columbia at no debt is TCR. My posts are really directed at people aiming to get primarily something else out of their jobs.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:31 pm

abl wrote:Also, I'll acknowledge that NYC may well be a different beast. My sense is that the city's legal culture is more intense, and given the higher COL, the balance between debt and jobs may well be different. For this, and for many other reasons, I'd advise students with options and without any particular affinity for the city to avoid it. (If you're a fan of NYC, more power to you--this is just one of the sacrifices that you're going to have to make to live and work in the city.)

Re flexibility, I do mean willing to work in midlaw (or to take other jobs at a lower salary). Maybe that's not really a financial option with NYC COL and $~200k in debt. It is, though, in much of the rest of the country. I think we can mostly agree that for someone whose goal is just to maximize their $$s, Columbia at no debt is TCR. My posts are really directed at people aiming to get primarily something else out of their jobs.

I will say it's encouraging to hear that you know litigators who are finding their feet post biglaw.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:33 pm

abl wrote:Also, I'll acknowledge that NYC may well be a different beast. My sense is that the city's legal culture is more intense, and given the higher COL, the balance between debt and jobs may well be different. For this, and for many other reasons, I'd advise students with options and without any particular affinity for the city to avoid it. (If you're a fan of NYC, more power to you--this is just one of the sacrifices that you're going to have to make to live and work in the city.)

Re flexibility, I do mean willing to work in midlaw (or to take other jobs at a lower salary). Maybe that's not really a financial option with NYC COL and $~200k in debt. It is, though, in much of the rest of the country. I think we can mostly agree that for someone whose goal is just to maximize their $$s, Columbia at no debt is TCR. My posts are really directed at people aiming to get primarily something else out of their jobs.

I don't think there is every any justification for taking YHS over a Hamilton/Ruby. None. Zero. Even if your goal is to grab SCOTUS clerkship or Academia, it makes more sense to hedge your bets at columbia (lol), and assume that the (presumed) interpersonal skills/intellect that landed you a Hamilton will continue to serve you well, but with no/little debts.

ETA: uninformed 0L opinion, swim at your own risk
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Fawkes wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
The debt is way worse than you'd think. Though there are several reasons why you might hear otherwise from people. If you are asking someone sufficiently older (even like 5th year+) their tuition was a lot lower than you would get now. I told a 5th year at my firm that I took out loans for my school and he said "so what like 150-160k in debt?" He was off by like 100k. And I started school over 4 years ago. Anyone starting in Fall 2015, will have way more debt than I do.

Wages have been statement and full fare debt loads are rising very quickly. The difference between someone with 150k debt in 2009 and someone with 300k debt in 2019 is way worse than double.

Also, almost nobody is actually paying off their debt quickly in big law. They are paying 10 year plan or sometimes even 20-25 year plans. But you won't get biglaw for that long. So yea, paying the ten year plan on biglaw salary isn't crushing, but what the fuck happens when your firm lays off 20% of your litigation group and you now have to take a MASSIVE paycut. That 2500 dollar a month loan bill is now too much to handle.

But, even if the debt is bearable (and again it really isn't), it still retarded to pay 2000 dollars a month more for a Harvard diploma than a Columbia diploma.


The people I talked to were graduates from 2010-2012. So, yes, their debt load was lower, and that's a good point. However, I wouldn't say the debt now is crushing, as it is often portrayed here. You will obviously have to live a more frugal lifestyle, and it would certainly be a burden, but not crushing.

I also wouldn't say it's "retarded" to pay for Harvard (or YS) over a full-ride at Columbia (or CCN in general). First of all, I'd try to avoid using that word in such a context, but that's a separate issue. This decision is an extremely personal one. Not everyone has the same priorities or considerations when choosing a school. People have different personal situations and different career goals, among other things. What makes sense for one person may be the less logical choice for another person. Just saying.


It's not "Crushing" to pay it off in 10 years, but you won't get 10 years in biglaw. I tried a 5 year payoff plan and it was too hard. And most don't even make it 5 years. If you go inhouse making 140k a year, yea, that's still okay. But you still are paying a lot of your income for 10 years.

This decision is an extremely personal one. Not everyone has the same priorities or considerations when choosing a school. People have different personal situations and different career goals, among other things. What makes sense for one person may be the less logical choice for another person. Just saying.[


Jumping in front of a bus is a person decision, but it is still stupid. I've never heard one even halfway reasonable situation where HLS is worth 180k in debt more than CLS.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby $$$$$$ » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Any person turning down a Full-Ride at a T-10 school for $150K+ debt at HYS is making a big, big mistake. Regardless of whether or not a person "regrets" their decision, the amount of earning power you loose in what many say is the most important time to invest and save is definitely not worth it. I mean, of the people I know that went to HYS, only a few got the jobs that you go there for, and of those, most have already left (within 3 years of graduating).

Be responsible, the decisions you make prior to law school on financing will affect you the rest of your life. Really think hard if you can justify loosing $3K a month (at least) in earning power for the negligible bump in expected outcomes.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby michlaw » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:52 pm

We live only once and it is hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes. As a nation we are 18 trillion in debt and the dow is at 18,000. Go figure. Hedge funds use debt 20 to 1 and reap staggering returns (and get paid anyway even if they are wrong). Banks leverage 10 to 1. Some play poker for a living and Vegas always makes money. People buy loto tickets when the odds are better they will get hit by lighting on the way to the store.

There are more than a few at YHS who not only are willing to borrow but have quit jobs that pay 120k a year to go 80k a year in debt. Over 3 years that's a 600k swing. They do it anyway. Life is very personal.

To have a Hamilton in hand and an acceptance at Harvard you are by definition a unicorn. If unicorns can't hope for unicorn outcomes who can?

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Jumping in front of a bus is a person decision, but it is still stupid. I've never heard one even halfway reasonable situation where HLS is worth 180k in debt more than CLS.


How's mine not? As I already stated, I get over 10x as much enjoyment from the difference between the (unicorn-ish) job I have and the (biglaw) job I likely would have had than I would an extra $15,000/year in disposable income (which is about what paying off $225,000 in debt costs you). Assuming, conservatively, that my law school increased my chances of getting my job by 10% relative to Columbia, then I would have been justified in paying $225k more to attend my HYS over Columbia (regardless of whether things turned out well for me or not).

Do you think it's unreasonable that I get that much more utility out of my employment than I do disposable income? I'm happy going into detail what I would be spending that extra $15,000/year in disposable income on (probably mostly housing) and why those benefits to me are dwarfed by how much I'm liking the job at which I spend roughly 50-60 hours each week. Don't get me wrong--an extra $15k in disposable income would be really nice. But you'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that (10x? 20x?) to get me to trade my current job in for the miserable trudge that is biglaw.

I don't even think that my perspective is particularly unusual -- I just don't think most people think about their lives in this way.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby abl » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:03 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:Any person turning down a Full-Ride at a T-10 school for $150K+ debt at HYS is making a big, big mistake. Regardless of whether or not a person "regrets" their decision, the amount of earning power you loose in what many say is the most important time to invest and save is definitely not worth it. I mean, of the people I know that went to HYS, only a few got the jobs that you go there for, and of those, most have already left (within 3 years of graduating).

Be responsible, the decisions you make prior to law school on financing will affect you the rest of your life. Really think hard if you can justify loosing $3K a month (at least) in earning power for the negligible bump in expected outcomes.


Sure, it's probably a bad decision based on purely financial considerations. People making the decision, however, are trying to maximize a much more broadly defined version of their utility.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:11 pm

abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Jumping in front of a bus is a person decision, but it is still stupid. I've never heard one even halfway reasonable situation where HLS is worth 180k in debt more than CLS.


How's mine not? As I already stated, I get over 10x as much enjoyment from the difference between the (unicorn-ish) job I have and the (biglaw) job I likely would have had than I would an extra $15,000/year in disposable income (which is about what paying off $225,000 in debt costs you). Assuming, conservatively, that my law school increased my chances of getting my job by 10% relative to Columbia, then I would have been justified in paying $225k more to attend my HYS over Columbia (regardless of whether things turned out well for me or not).

Do you think it's unreasonable that I get that much more utility out of my employment than I do disposable income? I'm happy going into detail what I would be spending that extra $15,000/year in disposable income on (probably mostly housing) and why those benefits to me are dwarfed by how much I'm liking the job at which I spend roughly 50-60 hours each week. Don't get me wrong--an extra $15k in disposable income would be really nice. But you'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that (10x? 20x?) to get me to trade my current job in for the miserable trudge that is biglaw.

I don't even think that my perspective is particularly unusual -- I just don't think most people think about their lives in this way.


Okay but I think the probative force of using yourself as an example has run a little dry by now; the 80-90% of folks who don't have your outcome from HLS can't make the same retrospective analysis.

You're turning this from advocating a particular position to becoming defensive about your own, intentionally or unintentionally. I don't think anyone's saying - and I'm certainly not - that you made a mistake taking on some added debt many years ago to go to a higher ranked school.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:16 pm

abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Jumping in front of a bus is a person decision, but it is still stupid. I've never heard one even halfway reasonable situation where HLS is worth 180k in debt more than CLS.


How's mine not? As I already stated, I get over 10x as much enjoyment from the difference between the (unicorn-ish) job I have and the (biglaw) job I likely would have had than I would an extra $15,000/year in disposable income (which is about what paying off $225,000 in debt costs you). Assuming, conservatively, that my law school increased my chances of getting my job by 10% relative to Columbia, then I would have been justified in paying $225k more to attend my HYS over Columbia (regardless of whether things turned out well for me or not).

Do you think it's unreasonable that I get that much more utility out of my employment than I do disposable income? I'm happy going into detail what I would be spending that extra $15,000/year in disposable income on (probably mostly housing) and why those benefits to me are dwarfed by how much I'm liking the job at which I spend roughly 50-60 hours each week. Don't get me wrong--an extra $15k in disposable income would be really nice. But you'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that (10x? 20x?) to get me to trade my current job in for the miserable trudge that is biglaw.

I don't even think that my perspective is particularly unusual -- I just don't think most people think about their lives in this way.


I understand if you don't want to say what you do, but unless it's blowjob inspector, I really doubt it's objectively worth 2mil over biglaw. I also doubt HLS makes a unicorn job 10% more likely compared to CLS since it wouldn't unicorn even if the difference was 10% HLS vs 0% CLS.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:16 pm

jbagelboy wrote:You're turning this from advocating a particular position to becoming defensive about your own, intentionally or unintentionally. I don't think anyone's saying - and I'm certainly not - that you made a mistake taking on some added debt many years ago to go to a higher ranked school.

Actually, I think you are saying that. You're suggesting that abl made a mistake but got lucky.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:23 pm

rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:You're turning this from advocating a particular position to becoming defensive about your own, intentionally or unintentionally. I don't think anyone's saying - and I'm certainly not - that you made a mistake taking on some added debt many years ago to go to a higher ranked school.

Actually, I think you are saying that. You're suggesting that abl made a mistake but got lucky.


Exactly, you can't judge this with a hindsight bias. Even if ABL is clerking for Ginsberg right now, something I concede HLS at 180K+ more debt would be a good trade off, it's still like 1/100 shot that just happened to pay off.

I could take 40k to the casino and let it roll on black 4 times in a row. That 6% of the time I walk away with my loans paid off and enough money to buy a BMW outright, doesn't make it a good choice.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:23 pm

rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:You're turning this from advocating a particular position to becoming defensive about your own, intentionally or unintentionally. I don't think anyone's saying - and I'm certainly not - that you made a mistake taking on some added debt many years ago to go to a higher ranked school.

Actually, I think you are saying that. You're suggesting that abl made a mistake but got lucky.


I don't think that poster's choice and this one are equivalent
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LSATneurotic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:32 pm

What's sucks is that YHS are able to fix the price because year after year morons/aristocrats pay full freight rather than take the money and run.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:39 pm

What's the deal with airplane food?




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