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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:13 pm
by 071816
clerkships are a scam

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:14 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Do tell.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:18 pm
by 071816
you are a bitch for a judge for a year. sweet! instead of doing grunt work at a law firm, you're doing grunt work on your own for a judge for relatively low pay. it makes sense for some people, i guess, but i think the whole thing is overrated prestige whoring (and not a good reason to attend a marginally better school at a much higher price).

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:22 pm
by abl
chimp wrote:you are a bitch for a judge for a year. sweet! instead of doing grunt work at a law firm, you're doing grunt work on your own for a judge for relatively low pay. it makes sense for some people, i guess, but i think the whole thing is overrated prestige whoring (and not a good reason to attend a marginally better school at a much higher price).


This was definitely not my experience. The percentage of the work that I did that was highly rewarding substantive work as compared with grunt work was significantly more favorable than what I see even the most senior folks at my current employment doing--which is by no means a criticism of where I currently work.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:27 pm
by bruinfan10
chimp wrote:you are a bitch for a judge for a year. sweet! instead of doing grunt work at a law firm, you're doing grunt work on your own for a judge for relatively low pay. it makes sense for some people, i guess, but i think the whole thing is overrated prestige whoring (and not a good reason to attend a marginally better school at a much higher price).

did you clerk? because that comment makes you sound criminally ignorant. the work you do on either an appellate or a district court is a FAR cry from the grunt work you do at a law firm (i.e. doc review, binder making, writing some mid-level's pet law review article). some judicial assistants get better substantive experience than a first year biglaw associate. that said, after having picked up two AIII clerkships, i have questions about the utility/wisdom of a second clerkship for sure, even if you're going to a firm that pays a second year bonus. i just have reasons in mind that are much different than the feces-scrawled-on-an-ad-seg-unit-wall type ramblings you've just produced.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:35 pm
by ExBiglawAssociate
bruinfan10 wrote:
chimp wrote:you are a bitch for a judge for a year. sweet! instead of doing grunt work at a law firm, you're doing grunt work on your own for a judge for relatively low pay. it makes sense for some people, i guess, but i think the whole thing is overrated prestige whoring (and not a good reason to attend a marginally better school at a much higher price).

did you clerk? because that comment makes you sound criminally ignorant. the work you do on either an appellate or a district court is a FAR cry from the grunt work you do at a law firm (i.e. doc review, binder making, writing some mid-level's pet law review article). some judicial assistants get better substantive experience than a first year biglaw associate. that said, after having picked up two AIII clerkships, i have questions about the utility/wisdom of a second clerkship for sure, even if you're going to a firm that pays a second year bonus. i just have reasons in mind that are much different than the feces-scrawled-on-an-ad-seg-unit-wall type ramblings you've just produced.

Credited.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:40 pm
by 071816
your professors clerked. they did it because someone told them it would be "good experience". they most likely got little to nothing out of it. but now, because it's on their resumes, they push it on their students as if it's the coolest and most valuable thing ever just to make themselves look like they did something worthwhile. and the cycle begins once again (same thing for law journals). you gotta play the game i guess, but how much extra money is a shot at a clerkship worth?

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:46 pm
by bruinfan10
chimp wrote:your professors clerked. they did it because someone told them it would be "good experience". they most likely got little to nothing out of it. but now, because it's on their resumes, they push it on their students as if it's the coolest and most valuable thing ever just to make themselves look like they did something worthwhile. and the cycle begins once again (same thing for law journals). you gotta play the game i guess, but how much extra money is a shot at a clerkship worth?

ugh. your username is appropriate. if you want to be a lawprof and we're talking about harvard students, it's worth a $hitton of money because HYS kids actually have a shot at that cushiest of all cushy gigs, and clerking is a prereq. if you want to be an AUSA/AAG, which are two of the holy grail outcomes for a real working attorney, your d.ct clerkship is a tremendous advantage and also worth putting up a considerable amount of money.

if, like me, you want to pick up a 50/70k bonus and corresponding class credit after working a job with decent pay/hours that gives solid substantive experience, a good shot at boutique lit firms, and solid resume-branding for the inevitable lateral move that all biglaw lawyers end up looking down the barrel of, it's also worth paying a little more to go to a school that can place you in a clerkship. prolly not 60, 70, 80k for most people, but i turned down UCLA/Cornell full rides for a half scholly at a school with better AIII outcomes.

i feel like i've seen you around before--you're not an 0L right--how are you seriously so egregiously underinformed about such a basic topic?

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:47 pm
by Tiago Splitter
bruinfan10 wrote:if, like me, you want to pick up a 50/70k bonus and corresponding class credit after working a job with decent pay/hours that has solid substantive experience, it's also worth paying a little more to go to a school that can place you in a clerkship.

You didn't seriously skip a year of biglaw and clerk instead for the money right?

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:49 pm
by bruinfan10
Tiago Splitter wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:if, like me, you want to pick up a 50/70k bonus and corresponding class credit after working a job with decent pay/hours that has solid substantive experience, it's also worth paying a little more to go to a school that can place you in a clerkship.

You didn't seriously skip a year of biglaw and clerk instead for the money right?

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:50 pm
by hdunlop
My understanding is if you calculate your hourly wage you're not really losing out on all that much cash.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:50 pm
by Tiago Splitter
I know but I just can't get over the way you phrased that.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:52 pm
by bruinfan10
Tiago Splitter wrote:I know but I just can't get over the way you phrased that.

lol, i should definitely have reversed the order of those two clauses.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:53 pm
by Desert Fox
In order for the extra 10% chance at a clerkship to be worth 150k, you gotta value the experience at like 1.5 mil. Obviously ridiculous.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:53 pm
by Varooom
.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:54 pm
by bruinfan10
Desert Fox wrote:In order for the extra 10% chance at a clerkship to be worth 150k, you gotta value the experience at like 1.5 mil. Obviously ridiculous.

True for sure. I was trying to walk ole chimpo back from a much less measured statement than that, for the record. And in my case I was terrified of being forced to work in LA or NYC by going to a regional school--I didn't value the AIII bump nearly as highly as avoiding regional trap schools.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:54 pm
by 071816
bruinfan10 wrote:
chimp wrote:your professors clerked. they did it because someone told them it would be "good experience". they most likely got little to nothing out of it. but now, because it's on their resumes, they push it on their students as if it's the coolest and most valuable thing ever just to make themselves look like they did something worthwhile. and the cycle begins once again (same thing for law journals). you gotta play the game i guess, but how much extra money is a shot at a clerkship worth?

ugh. your username is appropriate. if you want to be a lawprof and we're talking about harvard students, it's worth a $hitton of money because HYS kids actually have a shot at that cushiest of all cushy gigs, and clerking is a prereq. if you want to be an AUSA/AAG, which are two of the holy grail outcomes for a real working attorney, your d.ct clerkship is a tremendous advantage and also worth putting up a considerable amount of money.

if, like me, you want to pick up a 50/70k bonus and corresponding class credit after working a job with decent pay/hours that has solid substantive experience, it's also worth paying a little more to go to a school that can place you in a clerkship. prolly not 80k for most people, but i turned down UCLA/Cornell full rides for a half scholly at a school with better AIII outcomes (just better job outcomes in general for my market, actually...). i feel like i've seen you around before--you're not an 0L right--how are you seriously so egregiously underinformed about such a basic topic?


i acknowledged that it can make sense for some people, but overall it's mostly just FALSE PREFTIGE.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:57 pm
by Tiago Splitter
Varooom wrote:I’m fascinated by the groupthink here with regard to prestige as a fabricated idea without much value. Quite simply, the best schools in the country (undergrad, law, business, etc.) open doors that other schools do not. This is why a lot of people are willing to pay the higher cost. Now, of course, everyone must determine their own value – and, risk tolerance – for those said doors.

The focus here on comparing 1L hiring is misguided. As someone else said above, not all firms are equal. And, more importantly, a prospective career arc must be considered in full. Bigger spoils are more reachable from a better school. And, yes, this comes at a greater risk, particularly for a person that is an all-star on paper, but not quite in person.

In the end, the best schools are best for a reason. As bad a societal truth as it may be, and as much as people want to devalue it, there is much intangible – or, perhaps, deferred – value in attending the best schools. Unlocking that value depends on an alumnus’ abilities (i.e., positioning) and luck. But, to trivialize its value is, well, a bit foolish.

We're talking Harvard vs Columbia, not Harvard vs fucking Florida A&M. And we're talking about 180k plus interest.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:58 pm
by Desert Fox
bruinfan10 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:In order for the extra 10% chance at a clerkship to be worth 150k, you gotta value the experience at like 1.5 mil. Obviously ridiculous.

True for sure. I was trying to walk ole chimpo back from a much less measured statement than that, for the record.


yea I think chimp is going way too far the other way.

I"m sure clerkships are better work experience, but I'm not sure it's really worth all that much. It doesn't seem to give you a leg up in biglaw, unless you are pretty marketable for something. Like for appellate work, fed cir for patent, etc.

After a couple years working, I wonder if it has a really big impact on exit options. Doesn't seem like.

Seems like networking with other clerks is a bonus, but you have to be the same area, and I don't even know how to go about it.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:00 pm
by Desert Fox
I guess the real question is how much would you pay, at graduation, for a clerkship, assuming 7% interest? I'd maybe pay 25k. 50k for fed cir. What would you guys pay?

Now discount that by 90% because Harvard only gives you a 10% better chance.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:02 pm
by sublime
..

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:05 pm
by bruinfan10
Desert Fox wrote:I guess the real question is how much would you pay, at graduation, for a clerkship, assuming 7% interest? I'd maybe pay 25k. 50k for fed cir. What would you guys pay?

Now discount that by 90% because Harvard only gives you a 10% better chance.

Yeah, I think that's a fair way to look at it. It's probably worth a few grand, especially at HYS-type schools where even median kids can land some kind of AIII gig, but I'm definitely starting to wonder how much distance I'm gonna get out of my credentials/whether my grades and other non-clerkship resume lines could have gotten me many of the same positions. The second clerkship I picked up was for a big name judge in my home market, so I do think that kind of branding/networking opp will be valuable, but I'll even agree with chimp that it's not the right call for everyone.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:08 pm
by abl
Desert Fox wrote:I guess the real question is how much would you pay, at graduation, for a clerkship, assuming 7% interest? I'd maybe pay 25k. 50k for fed cir. What would you guys pay?

Now discount that by 90% because Harvard only gives you a 10% better chance.


7%->17% = 243% better chance. Not a 10% better chance. Put in other words, you're over twice as likely to clerk from Harvard than you are from Columbia.

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:12 pm
by jbagelboy
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Varooom wrote:I’m fascinated by the groupthink here with regard to prestige as a fabricated idea without much value. Quite simply, the best schools in the country (undergrad, law, business, etc.) open doors that other schools do not. This is why a lot of people are willing to pay the higher cost. Now, of course, everyone must determine their own value – and, risk tolerance – for those said doors.

The focus here on comparing 1L hiring is misguided. As someone else said above, not all firms are equal. And, more importantly, a prospective career arc must be considered in full. Bigger spoils are more reachable from a better school. And, yes, this comes at a greater risk, particularly for a person that is an all-star on paper, but not quite in person.

In the end, the best schools are best for a reason. As bad a societal truth as it may be, and as much as people want to devalue it, there is much intangible – or, perhaps, deferred – value in attending the best schools. Unlocking that value depends on an alumnus’ abilities (i.e., positioning) and luck. But, to trivialize its value is, well, a bit foolish.

We're talking Harvard vs Columbia, not Harvard vs fucking Florida A&M. And we're talking about 180k plus interest.


Right, no one's disputing its important to go to a good school, all of this is comparing between the best schools - its incredibly incremental, not binary - a gloss that's sometimes lost on 0Ls

Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:13 pm
by Desert Fox
abl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I guess the real question is how much would you pay, at graduation, for a clerkship, assuming 7% interest? I'd maybe pay 25k. 50k for fed cir. What would you guys pay?

Now discount that by 90% because Harvard only gives you a 10% better chance.


7%->17% = 243% better chance. Not a 10% better chance. Put in other words, you're over twice as likely to clerk from Harvard than you are from Columbia.


It's still an absolute 10% difference and that is what you should when calculating expected value.