michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

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puzzles
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michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby puzzles » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:25 pm

So, in your educated TLS opinions, what do you think:

U Mich (full scholarship) (haven't visited yet)
UVA (full scholarship) (haven't visited yet)
Berkeley (scholarship unknown / not awarded yet) (visited and thought the school was great)

Admitted at other t-14s as well, but due to $$ / other factors, these are the three I've narrowed down to.

Strong ties to northern and southern California, but open to living and working anywhere after law school.

Unsure about what kind of law I'd like to practice.

Thank you for your opinions - I appreciate any insight / feedback you may have!!

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transferror
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby transferror » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:28 pm

UVA for only CoL is a no brainer

TheOnePercent
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby TheOnePercent » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:28 pm

Hoos (if you have any interest in BigLaw) hands down. Or at least until you hear about $$$ from Boalt.

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lawschool1741
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby lawschool1741 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:30 pm

transferror wrote:UVA for only CoL is a no brainer

Seconded. But if you are able to, it might be worth waiting out Berk - I would take them full ride (or very close to it) > UVA with your ties.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:33 pm

I feel like someone with these options should be able to get pretty close to a full ride at Chicago which seems like a better outcome than UVA or Mich. Obviously Berk is the winner if they come through with the right scholarship.

TheOnePercent
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby TheOnePercent » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:33 pm

transferror wrote:I would take [Cal] full ride (or very close to it) > UVA with your ties.

Agreed. And for the love of God, drop Michigan w/ those options. It's a dumpster fire.

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transferror
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby transferror » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:45 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I feel like someone with these options should be able to get pretty close to a full ride at Chicago which seems like a better outcome than UVA or Mich. Obviously Berk is the winner if they come through with the right scholarship.


Agree that Boalt is the right option if they match or come close, which I think I remember reading they're good about matching scholarships. But Dillard is correct choice at the moment.

TS: Not sure OP has a shot at Chi. Several 3.9ish/169-172 type applicants have gotten Dillards this year, and those same numbers + whatever Berk looks for in app = admission to UC-B. Based on these offers, I'd imagine OP is a 3.95/170 type applicant, which doesn't exactly scream Hamitlon/Ruby/Vanderbilt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:51 pm

I feel like Chicago is one where negotiation can get you pretty close to a full ride. NYU could be similar but less so and Columbia is hopeless. At the very least OP or others in a similar situation should hang in there with the negotiations until the last possible moment and see what happens. Agree that the Dillard is best with the current options.

puzzles
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby puzzles » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:02 pm

Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Alan Grant » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:10 pm

transferror wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I feel like someone with these options should be able to get pretty close to a full ride at Chicago which seems like a better outcome than UVA or Mich. Obviously Berk is the winner if they come through with the right scholarship.


Agree that Boalt is the right option if they match or come close, which I think I remember reading they're good about matching scholarships. But Dillard is correct choice at the moment.

TS: Not sure OP has a shot at Chi. Several 3.9ish/169-172 type applicants have gotten Dillards this year, and those same numbers + whatever Berk looks for in app = admission to UC-B. Based on these offers, I'd imagine OP is a 3.95/170 type applicant, which doesn't exactly scream Hamitlon/Ruby/Vanderbilt.


From what I understand––and I am be incorrect here––Berkeley generally does not give full rides, so I think UVA will definitely be your best option. If, however, you do end up getting something close to a full ride at Boalt, then, given your ties, I would say go there.

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Winston1984
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Winston1984 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:29 pm

puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!

Didn't they stop considering UVA a peer as well?

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:34 pm

puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby thatsnotmyname » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:42 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!

Didn't they stop considering UVA a peer as well?


I don't know if they stopped or if UVA was simply never on their list of 10 peer schools to begin with. But UVA is not a school that is listed on their matching scholarship program website. OP does have a full tuition scholarship at Michigan though and, fortunately for OP, UMich is on Berkeley's list of peer schools eligible for matching.

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby TheOnePercent » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:56 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.


This. Whether you're chasing that BigLaw brass ring, BigGov, elite PI, clerking, etc. - your grades (curved, natch) will matter. It's zero sum at most elite programs - regardless of the PR shtick admissions is slinging.

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:02 am

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.


Wrong. Boalt definitely has a laid back vibe. Sure, 1L sucks everywhere because of the curve and the stakes, but at B the student body is very chill and non-competitive. I suspect that some of this can be attributed to the H-P grading system, which is a huge stress relief.

Friends who have done the Harvard exchange program for 3L have confirmed that H kids are much more "intense." People who visit other schools' ASW report distinct differences in the "vibes" of the schools. People often describe Chicago as noticeably stuffier.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:07 am

WhiskeynCoke wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.


Wrong. Boalt definitely has a laid back vibe. Sure, 1L sucks everywhere because of the curve and the stakes, but at B the student body is very chill and non-competitive. I suspect that some of this can be attributed to the H-P grading system, which is a huge stress relief.

Friends who have done the Harvard exchange program for 3L have confirmed that H kids are much more "intense." People who visit other schools' ASW report distinct differences in the "vibes" of the schools. People often describe Chicago as noticeably stuffier.


:lol: So around 50% of the class gets biglaw+clerkship, yet it's not competitive? :lol: Are you guys serious or just trolling naive 0Ls? Every T-14 is competitive; stop misleading the naive.

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:49 am

TheOnePercent wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.


This. Whether you're chasing that BigLaw brass ring, BigGov, elite PI, clerking, etc. - your grades (curved, natch) will matter. It's zero sum at most elite programs - regardless of the PR shtick admissions is slinging.


With regard to biglaw, I don't agree, it's not a zero sum game at some schools, certainly not at mine. You don't need to beat out your classmates to get a firm job and there's no negative competitive vibe - every who shows up for interviews and has the personality can work at a large firm and no one feels their jobs (or grades) are "taken" by classmates. I feel like this applies to clerkships as well, but for different reasons - it's so individualized. For the set of students interested and qualified for federal government hiring or specific post-grad fellowships it might feel a little more zero sum, but you certainly don't need to be in that environment.

Note: this doesn't mean law school will have a "laid-back vibe." These are still intense, driven people, even if they are friendly and collaborative. But it doesn't have to feel anything like "zero sum."

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby TheOnePercent » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
TheOnePercent wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer.

Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.

This. Whether you're chasing that BigLaw brass ring, BigGov, elite PI, clerking, etc. - your grades (curved, natch) will matter. It's zero sum at most elite programs - regardless of the PR shtick admissions is slinging.


With regard to biglaw, I don't agree, it's not a zero sum game at some schools, certainly not at mine. You don't need to beat out your classmates to get a firm job and there's no negative competitive vibe - every who shows up for interviews and has the personality can work at a large firm and no one feels their jobs (or grades) are "taken" by classmates. I feel like this applies to clerkships as well, but for different reasons - it's so individualized. For the set of students interested and qualified for federal government hiring or specific post-grad fellowships it might feel a little more zero sum, but you certainly don't need to be in that environment.

Note: this doesn't mean law school will have a "laid-back vibe." These are still intense, driven people, even if they are friendly and collaborative. But it doesn't have to feel anything like "zero sum."

Let me reframe - because agree w/ the first half of your note.

In terms of merely getting a firm job from a T10 - sure. But if gunning for elite firms (particularly in more grade conscious markets like DC), there does seem to be distinct benefit to stronger grades even at schools w/ phenomenal placement. Grades are zero-sum - at least during 1L - and that seems to translate, particularly in those initial semesters, to a degree of intensity that exists among the majority of peers. Outside of like Y, don't see how that's different elsewhere. Don't believe this intensity is negative per se or that intensity is contrary to a friendly/collaborative student body, but feeds class dynamic that is far from "laid back." Obviously has changed in subsequent semesters, but I'd be wary of a program that professes to be "more chill" than peers. Strikes me as misleading.

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Alan Grant » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:07 pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!

Didn't they stop considering UVA a peer as well?


I don't know if they stopped or if UVA was simply never on their list of 10 peer schools to begin with. But UVA is not a school that is listed on their matching scholarship program website. OP does have a full tuition scholarship at Michigan though and, fortunately for OP, UMich is on Berkeley's list of peer schools eligible for matching.


.
Last edited by Alan Grant on Sun May 03, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:48 am

Assuming OP got a Darrow, the 10k yr stipend might sway me from UVA in this situation

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:15 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
WhiskeynCoke wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:
puzzles wrote:Thank you to everyone for the responses so far! I really appreciate all of your insight.

I did get into Chicago, but haven't heard about $$$ yet -- my hesitation there (based on a few friends who have gone to school there, though I haven't had a chance to visit for myself yet!) is that Chicago doesn't have quite the community / laid back vibe the other options might offer. It's definitely important to me to not only receive a solid education, but also to be surrounded by a genuinely enjoyable group of people.

I went to Berkeley for undergrad - love it - but am certainly not banking on getting a similar scholarship to UVA / Mich. Went to the admitted students weekend this past week and they mentioned that they match about 1/3 of the matching scholarship applications. Obviously not something to bank on!

Would love any more insight; thanks!


Pro-tip: no T14 law school actually has a "laid back vibe." Chicago's no more or less chill than any other school out there.


Wrong. Boalt definitely has a laid back vibe. Sure, 1L sucks everywhere because of the curve and the stakes, but at B the student body is very chill and non-competitive. I suspect that some of this can be attributed to the H-P grading system, which is a huge stress relief.

Friends who have done the Harvard exchange program for 3L have confirmed that H kids are much more "intense." People who visit other schools' ASW report distinct differences in the "vibes" of the schools. People often describe Chicago as noticeably stuffier.


:lol: So around 50% of the class gets biglaw+clerkship, yet it's not competitive? :lol: Are you guys serious or just trolling naive 0Ls? Every T-14 is competitive; stop misleading the naive.


I was referring to the student body and not the academic challenge of law school. Law school, by definition, is competitive because of the curve. Also, those are c/o 2013 numbers, which reflects 2011's OCI. That was the depth of the recession. The bay is booming so 2014 OCI was smooth sailing for the vast majority of us.

If the point you are trying to make is that "every law school has the same vibe DUH," then that's just stupid. Would you argue that New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Ann Arbor, and Durham all have the same "vibes?" That Boalt can have a different vibe than Duke or Chicago really isn't that controversial of a point to make.

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Re: michigan $$$$ vs. uva $$$$ vs. berkeley ($?)

Postby Nomo » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:55 am

WhiskeynCoke wrote: Also, those are c/o 2013 numbers, which reflects 2011's OCI. That was the depth of the recession. The bay is booming so 2014 OCI was smooth sailing for the vast majority of us.


The article below has a chart that shows the percentage of the class hired into NLJ 250 firms by school in 2007. Even if 2014 OCI was as good 2005 OCI (the year the class of 2007 went through OCI) there were still plenty of people getting left behind. And I'm pretty sure 2014 OCI wasn't better than 2005 OCI. The legal sector just hasn't expanded very much. And a lot more work is getting sent to staff attorneys or computers (for e-discovery).




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