Denver UNC FSU GSU

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TJ33618
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Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TJ33618 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:31 am

Hello. I'm running up against decision time. I'm going to school with a family of 5 and quality of life during school along with job prospects after school is a big concern for me, obviously.

gpa 2.9, lsat 161 (one attempt)

Denver. 1/2 scholarship. No ties, have tried to relocate for years.
UNC. Out of state tuition, no scholarship. Also a place I would like to life (I like seasons and mountain)
FSU. In state. I live in Tampa now and FSU would allow me to come back to Tampa
GSU. Scholarships tbd. It's ATL placement seems high and tuition is low. Still gives me seasons and access to N GA.

I have ties back in Tampa (in laws are lawyers (sole practice 30 years, and partner at litigation firm 8 years) I know some judges as well who have offered placement.

My thoughts were that because of the ties to the area I may be able to come back to Tampa and lean on those contacts. So far UNC will be the most expensive (1st year tuition oos is 35k+, followed by is tuition about 15k less). All other schools will be around the same costs 20k +/- 2 per year. I don't think my gpa allows for many substantial scholarship opportunities even if I retook the lsat for a higher score. Plus, I'm 34 and I work full time and have a family so devoting substantial time to lsat prep was challenging. I was scoring about 7 pts higher in practice but I got jammed up on a lg in section 2 and when I realized that it counted by section 4 I let it bother me more than I should have and my score suffered on the last 2 sections. My current job is so devoid of a future for growth that I'm willing to take on law school debt and actually think it is a more prudent move than staying where I am. I'm more at peace with attending law school than I am about the likelihood of doing well where I am.

What are your thoughts? I am leaning on your collective experience.

Thank you for the help.

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lawschool1741
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby lawschool1741 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:33 am

Retake

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romothesavior
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:34 am

You should retake for UF/FSU for free. None of these out of state options make much sense, especially with the debt.

Are your connections able to give you a guaranteed job? If so, that might change things. If not, I don't think your current options are very good for your goals.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:46 am

Retake but I don't think you get a full ride with that GPA. I know things are easier now, but four years ago I had the same GPA and a better LSAT. I got into UF and FSU, but no money. i applied to like 25 schools and only got one full ride. That GPA is an anchor.

Can you move to UNC and get in state tuition? I would much rather go there and have the Tampa connections in my back pocket.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:04 pm

With a (large) family to support, going to any of these four schools with these COAs would be pretty irresponsible.

I would strongly advise against attending here. You are looking at giving up income for three and a half years and taking very high debt levels for schools with subpar (to be kind) employment statistics. You're looking at about a coin flip's chance at getting any paying legal work within a year of graduating at any of your options, and very few of these schools' graduates who are employed are making > 60K out of the gate. I realize working a dead-end job sucks, but these odds and these kinds of salaries (for the price of admission) suck: the grass is not greener on this side.

I don't think this is a good path to pursue, period -- your GPA has foreclosed most every desirable option for law school, and, again, you have a family to consider. The legal profession is in a terrible state and there is little room for optimism that the glory days will ever return. But if you're going to do it anyway, please, do not uproot your family for some shitty law school across the country, especially when you plan to return to Tampa, anyway.

Follow two rules of thumb: go to school in the immediate region you want to practice, and don't take out more debt than you can expect your salary as a first-year graduate to be. At any of these schools, you can't expect to make more than 50-60K, and there's a very solid chance you'll be unemployed. Use http://www.lawschooltransparency.com as your general guide to this process.

tldr: don't go. But if you are going to, go where you want to practice, and retake until you have a score that allows for much better scholarships.

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TheProdigal
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TheProdigal » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:14 pm

Your best bet (still not necessarily a good one) here would be FSU. Today's UF's deadline, throw them an app. You might be able to use acceptances at one for some negotiations with the other. Same for Miami and FIU. Maybe.

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storpappa
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby storpappa » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:30 pm

TheProdigal wrote:Your best bet (still not necessarily a good one) here would be FSU. Today's UF's deadline, throw them an app. You might be able to use acceptances at one for some negotiations with the other. Same for Miami and FIU. Maybe.


And those deadline dates seem to be written in the sand during low tide for many schools

TirantMartorell
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TirantMartorell » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:34 pm

FSU is probably your best (but not ideal) choice here.

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sublime
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby sublime » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:38 pm

..

Nomo
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby Nomo » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:43 pm

If your in laws can promise you a job at an acceptable salary then FSU is fine. Otherwise don't go. None of those schools are worth the price.

TJ33618
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TJ33618 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:08 pm

Stetson offered half tuition. But I don't want to stay in Tampa. I'd prefer to hang on to the connections here as a backup. If anyone has direct experience with those schools I'd love to hear your experience.

I know my gpa is bad. It was over a decade ago and there isn't anything I can do about it now. Even though I'm confident I can score higher on a retake I don't believe it willmitigate my gpa enough to pay my full way or get into thw very best schools (with significant increases in debt tuition if I did get in). Plus it pushes me back a year and I don't know that it will make an appreciable difference in admissions. I may get Iito alabama but I doubt duke would be an option.

I don't know that anyone could be guaranteed a job 4 years in the future and that certainly isn't what I have in Tampa. What I would have is a network of lawyers and judges to help me find employment in taTampa. I would prefer a market outside of Florida thus the applications to Denver, Atlanta, and nc.

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middlebear
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby middlebear » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:40 pm

TJ33618 wrote:I don't know that anyone could be guaranteed a job 4 years in the future and that certainly isn't what I have in Tampa. What I would have is a network of lawyers and judges to help me find employment in taTampa. I would prefer a market outside of Florida thus the applications to Denver, Atlanta, and nc.


Do you have ties anywhere other than Florida?? I don't think you understand how hiring works. And as a Denver native - you will not be able to get a job here going to DU but having no other ties. DU is the second-rate school in the state, and our market (at least, for law firms) is infamously insular and small. Everyone wants to relocate here, so if you don't have ties, you're probably out of luck.

If you can get into the high 160s, it will DRASTICALLY affect your options. You will certainly get more money. Like everyone is saying here, please, think of the effect you going into massive debt and not being able to find a job, or at least a decent-paying job, will have on your family. I'm sure there are alternatives.

Nomo
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby Nomo » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:56 pm

TJ33618 wrote: . . . If anyone has direct experience with those schools I'd love to hear your experience.
. . .
I don't know that anyone could be guaranteed a job 4 years in the future and that certainly isn't what I have in Tampa. What I would have is a network of lawyers and judges to help me find employment in taTampa. I would prefer a market outside of Florida thus the applications to Denver, Atlanta, and nc.


You're probably not getting a job outside Florida. You don't need to hear from anyone's personal experience. In 2009 people were listening to those who had personal experience because the data was totally misleading. As it turns out, a lot of people got bad advice based on "personal experience." We have pretty good data now. But the picture that data paints isn't pretty.

Everything you are saying on here tells me that you are someone who should not go to law school.

TJ33618
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TJ33618 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:26 pm

middlebear wrote:And as a Denver native - you will not be able to get a job here going to DU but having no other ties. DU is the second-rate school in the state, and our market (at least, for law firms) is infamously insular and small. Everyone wants to relocate here, so if you don't have ties, you're probably out of luck.


Thank you. That is exactly what I was asking for.

middlebear wrote:Like everyone is saying here, please, think of the effect you going into massive debt and not being able to find a job, or at least a decent-paying job, will have on your family. I'm sure there are alternatives.


I appreciate the concern and that is exactly why I am asking these questions. I don't have experience with the legal market in Denver so I asked the questions.

TJ33618
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby TJ33618 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:47 pm

Nomo wrote:
TJ33618 wrote:

Everything you are saying on here tells me that you are someone who should not go to law school.


Thanks.

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KMart
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby KMart » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:00 am

You're already a non traditional applicant, why not put off law school another year and retake for more money? Especially because of the large family, COA becomes increasingly more important. This is assuming you currently hold a job and won't have the year-long resume gap.

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Aspen285
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby Aspen285 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:36 am

It seems like most of the replies you received (my experience on this board was the same) are based solely on financial factors, but I challenge you to think beyond the money. I'm older than you and in my professional experience people who have exceptional skills and work very hard will always get a job and be well compensated.

I'm going to retake the LSAT in June (156 in Feb. almost cold) and wait a year to apply to DU. I live near Denver and have legal connections here, but might relocate my family for a full ride, better commute, and lower cost of living elsewhere. Everyone assumes that going to law school requires loans. It wouldn't for me even at full price because of what I've earned and saved, and it might not for you either.

Don't listen to people who don't know you and tell you not to go to law school at all. For some younger people, who mean well with their advice, life still seems linear and they rely too heavily on data and rankings. Having lived a little longer, you probably realize that life rarely conforms to formulas and the possibilities are only limited if you believe they are. If it's your dream and your family supports you, then you might forever regret not giving it a try.

*Typed on my phone - my apologies for errors.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby zombie mcavoy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:42 am

Aspen285 wrote:It seems like most of the replies you received (my experience on this board was the same) are based solely on financial factors, but I challenge you to think beyond the money. I'm older than you and in my professional experience people who have exceptional skills and work very hard will always get a job and be well compensated.

I'm going to retake the LSAT in June (156 in Feb. almost cold) and wait a year to apply to DU. I live near Denver and have legal connections here, but might relocate my family for a full ride, better commute, and lower cost of living elsewhere. Everyone assumes that going to law school requires loans. It wouldn't for me even at full price because of what I've earned and saved, and it might not for you either.

Don't listen to people who don't know you and tell you not to go to law school at all. For some younger people, who mean well with their advice, life still seems linear and they rely too heavily on data and rankings. Having lived a little longer, you probably realize that life rarely conforms to formulas and the possibilities are only limited if you believe they are. If it's your dream and your family supports you, then you might forever regret not giving it a try.

*Typed on my phone - my apologies for errors.

:roll:

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AT9
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby AT9 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:52 am

I'd disagree with some posters who say these are bad schools, but I'd agree that they don't make a lot of sense at these costs. Picking up a large family and moving to a different state for a pretty small chance of obtaining a high-paying job in a place where you apparently don't have ties and a 100% chance of taking on a ton of debt is probably not a smart move.

Sorry if I missed this, but do you have a spouse who may have a job any of these places? Or in Tampa now? If, for instance, you have a spouse who can cover cost of living, staying in Tampa and going to Stetson with $$$ may not be a terrible idea. UF and FSU with $$$ may not be a bad idea either.

Law school with a working spouse, no kids, and $$$ at a tier 1 school like these was scary enough for me. I can't imagine doing it with a large family and tons of debt staring me down.

wat
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Re: Denver UNC FSU GSU

Postby wat » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:11 pm

Would you advise someone that lives in Colorado to move to Florida to attend Stetson at half-price, even if they have no ties to Florida?

That's not too far from what you are proposing regarding going to Denver.

None of these options are good. If you can't get decent money from FSU or UF, I would seriously reconsider going to law school.




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