Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

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MBDTF711
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Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby MBDTF711 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:28 am

The schools you are considering:
WashU Law, Michigan Law

The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships:
WUSTL: Full ride, so whatever books cost and COL (relatively negligible)
Michigan: After $10k scholarship, I assume about $55,000/year

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings:
I have a small amount saved- I am doing a term of service with a stipend right now- when that money runs out I will be relying on loans.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any):
I am from NY and would like to ideally work in NY biglaw, though I am not married to the idea. I moved away from NY for the first time this year and realized that I would really like to move back there, since my family and friends all live there. I live in Baltimore now but don't feel any strong ties to it.

Your general career goals:
NY biglaw. I don't want to stay in Michigan or in St. Louis.

Your LSAT/GPA numbers:
168 / 3.69

How many times you have taken the LSAT:
Once (and I don't think I could ever do better than 168).

WUSTL's full scholarship is extremely attractive. However, I worry that though it might be a good short-term investment, the job prospects afterwards will be much worse. Michigan is notoriously pretty good at job placement in NY after graduation, right? I am debt-averse, though, and wonder if it is worth being saddled by so much debt.

I already reached out to Michigan asking for more money, and I'm waiting to hear back.

Thoughts?

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LawsRUs
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby LawsRUs » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:11 am

Hey. I'm surprised you don't have other options with your numbers. Did you not apply to Cornell for instance??

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lawschool1741
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby lawschool1741 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:34 am

Cornell is TCR

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romothesavior
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:46 am

Surely you have some other options, no?

I would lean slightly towards WUSTL here but you should have some other options on the table.

MBDTF711
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby MBDTF711 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:10 am

LawsRUs wrote:Hey. I'm surprised you don't have other options with your numbers. Did you not apply to Cornell for instance??


romothesavior wrote:Surely you have some other options, no?

I would lean slightly towards WUSTL here but you should have some other options on the table.


Yeah, I was accepted to both Cornell and Georgetown but received no scholarships to either.

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romothesavior
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:06 am

Have you asked? Your numbers should get you something.

Georgetown is notoriously stingy but Cornell should play ball.

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reasonable person
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby reasonable person » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:20 am

WUSTL, but you should consider other schools as well.

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PourMeTea
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Post removed.

Postby PourMeTea » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:33 am

Post removed.
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03152016
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:59 pm

mich oos coa is 72,428
3.39% average tuition cost inflation per year
factoring in that and 2% col cost inflation, i predict your 1L coa will be 74,632
if those cost inflation figures hold, and you factoring in 10k yearly, + plus/stafford interest and origination fees and six month deferment
then i estimate your total debt at repayment to be 237,789

you estimated 55,000 per year, for a total coa of 165,000

in order for your estimate to be accurate, the amount of money you should have in the bank is $57,971
(which, applied to your first year's expenses, reduces 1L debt to 8,011, resulting in total debt at repayment of $165k)

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cron1834
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby cron1834 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:32 pm

That's too much for Mich. Crowdsourcing says Cornell.

MBDTF711
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby MBDTF711 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:44 pm

cron1834 wrote:That's too much for Mich. Crowdsourcing says Cornell.


Hadn't thought about reaching out to Cornell for aid, but I am going to do that now. Thanks for the advice. Might make this situation a bit easier.

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cron1834
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby cron1834 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:49 pm

Good luck duder, hit that.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Too much money for UMich and Wustl isn't very good for your goals.

I had basically the same stats as you last year (like a 3.6 instead) and cornell gave me like 40K. That's hardly a drop in the bucket when tuition is 60K, but if you could get your COA to like 200K at Cornell I guess I would be OK with that here. It's a big risk and you'll be tied to biglaw for a long time, but that's the best option here for your goals (other than retaking, which is the actual best option).

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:22 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:Too much money for UMich and Wustl isn't very good for your goals.

I had basically the same stats as you last year (like a 3.6 instead) and cornell gave me like 40K. That's hardly a drop in the bucket when tuition is 60K, but if you could get your COA to like 200K at Cornell I guess I would be OK with that here. It's a big risk and you'll be tied to biglaw for a long time, but that's the best option here for your goals (other than retaking, which is the actual best option).


LOL at 200k being okay. He has something like a 50% chance at Cornell of not getting a high paying job, let alone paying down 200k in loans.

Biglaw is NBD am i right?

Just retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go at all.

I suspect law schools in general will go down the shitter, so maybe tuition will go down in the near future.

redsoxfan1989
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby redsoxfan1989 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:49 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:LOL at 200k being okay. He has something like a 50% chance at Cornell of not getting a high paying job


False. See http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/cornell/.

About 70% in Big Law + Fed Clerk. That's not including any positive PI or JD advantage outcomes for which that we don't have great data.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:12 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:Too much money for UMich and Wustl isn't very good for your goals.

I had basically the same stats as you last year (like a 3.6 instead) and cornell gave me like 40K. That's hardly a drop in the bucket when tuition is 60K, but if you could get your COA to like 200K at Cornell I guess I would be OK with that here. It's a big risk and you'll be tied to biglaw for a long time, but that's the best option here for your goals (other than retaking, which is the actual best option).


LOL at 200k being okay. He has something like a 50% chance at Cornell of not getting a high paying job, let alone paying down 200k in loans.

Biglaw is NBD am i right?

Just retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go at all.

I suspect law schools in general will go down the shitter, so maybe tuition will go down in the near future.

It's more debt than I would take for Cornell but it's not absurd. If what matters most to OP is getting biglaw in NYC, 200K for Cornell is a reasonable investment -- as another said, >70 % get a job that makes this debt reasonable, and undoubtedly there is a decent chunk of people who self-select out of that 70%.

I made no comment about whether or not NYC biglaw is desirable. It's a pretty surefire outcome from Cornell though.

I agree retaking the LSAT would be better, though. I don't see any reason to think your last line has any merit. supply/demand for T13 schools is not going to change so much that they even stop increasing tuition.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:20 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:Too much money for UMich and Wustl isn't very good for your goals.

I had basically the same stats as you last year (like a 3.6 instead) and cornell gave me like 40K. That's hardly a drop in the bucket when tuition is 60K, but if you could get your COA to like 200K at Cornell I guess I would be OK with that here. It's a big risk and you'll be tied to biglaw for a long time, but that's the best option here for your goals (other than retaking, which is the actual best option).


LOL at 200k being okay. He has something like a 50% chance at Cornell of not getting a high paying job, let alone paying down 200k in loans.

Biglaw is NBD am i right?

Just retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go at all.

I suspect law schools in general will go down the shitter, so maybe tuition will go down in the near future.

It's more debt than I would take for Cornell but it's not absurd. If what matters most to OP is getting biglaw in NYC, 200K for Cornell is a reasonable investment -- as another said, >70 % get a job that makes this debt reasonable, and undoubtedly there is a decent chunk of people who self-select out of that 70%.

I made no comment about whether or not NYC biglaw is desirable. It's a pretty surefire outcome from Cornell though.

I agree retaking the LSAT would be better, though. I don't see any reason to think your last line has any merit. supply/demand for T13 schools is not going to change so much that they even stop increasing tuition.


So 68% from the Class of 2013 (so 2 years ago) got biglaw and clerkship, so 200k is not absurd? My friends who paid 200k for their law degrees are still paying it off 5 years down the line. It's pretty absurd to me. Also 68% is not "surefire" but whatever.

They are offering more money for people with lower LSAT scores than when I applied, so OP might get more scholarship money in the near future when even fewer people with good LSAT scores are applying to law school. While demand might stay constant, the quality of people making such demands has changed and will continue to change. Not sure how low schools are willing to go re: quality of their classes in order to sustain tuition levels. They might just have less of an increase in tuition each year to make it more appealing to more cost-sensitive people with good numbers.

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chuckbass
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:27 pm

A full-ride at WUSTL is great if you're debt averse, but it's not great for NYC biglaw. You definitely have a shot at it here, but if that's your goal I don't think this gives you enough of a chance to be worth it even with the negligible debt.

shadowfax
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby shadowfax » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:29 pm

Problem solved. Cornell.
Last edited by shadowfax on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chuckbass
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:42 pm

shadowfax wrote:Take the ride. Michigan is the worst t-14 for big law and headed out of the t-14. In a downward spiral that is unstoppable. Debt free gives you so many options and who knows by your 3L year you could be top 10% of your class in St Louis and have been a summer at Sullivan or by then might not want big law.

Um... Who let you in here? This is all wrong you potato.

03152016
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:46 pm

i like the new feisty scoot

shadowfax
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby shadowfax » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:49 pm

Problem solved.
Last edited by shadowfax on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby zombie mcavoy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:56 pm

shadowfax wrote:Wow didn't occur to me that this is even controversial. What other law school has fallen from 3 to 11? Michigan has a built in advantage in the medians due to the lack of diversity. They don't take low numbers. Not their fault. Its the law. They can't get their students placed the same way other top schools can. This will only get worse. As the partners from Michigan retire, Michigan's influence, based on when it was great, will fall. And the Midwest economy ain't coming back anytime soon (or ever), so no local hiring market. A spiral with no way out.

Still a great school but the rankings will keep going down. So free St. Louis is a better choice.

lots of silly bare assertions here and arguments that don't logically follow from one another nice work 8)

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:21 pm

shadowfax wrote:Wow didn't occur to me that this is even controversial. What other law school has fallen from 3 to 11? Michigan has a built in advantage in the medians due to the lack of diversity. They don't take low numbers. Not their fault. Its the law. They can't get their students placed the same way other top schools can. This will only get worse. As the partners from Michigan retire, Michigan's influence, based on when it was great, will fall. And the Midwest economy ain't coming back anytime soon (or ever), so no local hiring market. A spiral with no way out.

Still a great school but the rankings will keep going down. So free St. Louis is a better choice.


Midwest economy is dead, so go to St. Louis?

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rahulg91
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Re: Mich $ or WUSTL full-ride?

Postby rahulg91 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:22 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:A full-ride at WUSTL is great if you're debt averse, but it's not great for NYC biglaw. You definitely have a shot at it here, but if that's your goal I don't think this gives you enough of a chance to be worth it even with the negligible debt.


+1 WUSTL if you're okay with non-biglaw options, or possibly Midwest biglaw. Otherwise take Michigan, or negotiate with another T14.




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