what's up with Michigan

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Alan Grant
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Alan Grant » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:21 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


A lot of people confuse it for Penn State, esp. those outside of the Northeast. Not a schtick - it's very common.


Truer than most people think. Really only Harvard, Yale, and Stanford have true national lay prestige. Penn (still occasionally confused with Penn State), Columbia, Duke, Cornell, and to a lesser extent, UVA and Michigan are well known in the North East, while NYU is not recognized to be as prestigious, though a strong school. In the South––and I include Texas here––UVA and Duke are king. In the Midwest, UChicago, Michigan, and Northwestern. On the west coast forget about it, UC-Berkley, and, maybe, Columbia and Duke. For its ranking, I would say Duke carries the most cachet.

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jbagelboy
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:19 am

Sigh. I despise lay prestige pontifications.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:59 am

jbagelboy wrote:Sigh. I despise lay prestige pontifications.


Only because duke > Columbia

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MistakenGenius
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TetrisBlock
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby TetrisBlock » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:17 am

MistakenGenius wrote:
Alan Grant wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


A lot of people confuse it for Penn State, esp. those outside of the Northeast. Not a schtick - it's very common.


Truer than most people think. Really only Harvard, Yale, and Stanford have true national lay prestige. Penn (still occasionally confused with Penn State), Columbia, Duke, Cornell, and to a lesser extent, UVA and Michigan are well known in the North East, while NYU is not recognized to be as prestigious, though a strong school. In the South––and I include Texas here––UVA and Duke are king. In the Midwest, UChicago, Michigan, and Northwestern. On the west coast forget about it, UC-Berkley, and, maybe, Columbia and Duke. For its ranking, I would say Duke carries the most cachet.


Mostly accurate (Penn is probably the least known of the ivy league) but needs some moderation. If we're discussing lay prestige, UVA is not that well known in the South outside of Virginia and maybe North Carolina. Ask a Georgian what's better: UGA, Emory, or UVA, and virtually no one would say UVA. In the South, Duke rules with an iron fist followed by Vanderbilt. UVA is equal to UNC or other good state schools in lay prestige. Stanford also isn't a national school. I'd put it with Columbia. Westerners love it like Northeasterners love Columbia, but both have a sphere of influence with laymen. I remember when I was applying to law school and mentioned Stanford, three different people asked me if it was a historical black college like Howard. Others thought I was mispronouncing Samford. Most people in the know realize how good Stanford is, but it is definitely not a national school for the layperson.

For pure lay prestige, Harvard is the Emperor of the World. Yale is better than any of the others, but Harvard is in a league by itself. Then the rest of the lay prestige varies by where you are in the country. I would agree that Duke would be high on the list for more areas of the country than any of the others, followed by Columbia and Stanford. Chicago, NYU, and Northwestern are definitely the least preftigious schools in the T14.

Edit: And Bagel, if it makes you feel better, you can tell people Columbia is more prestigious than Harvard, Yale, Oxford, and Cambridge combined. ;)


Just chiming in that I also didn't now Penn was different from Penn St. until I started looking at law schools. I'm from the South and I also didn't know UVA was a great school (I heard it and UNC were good) until applying to law schools. I thought it was Duke and then Vanderbilt and then maybe Emory, but Emory was just for med school. I didn't really care to find out what school was considered great and just went to the best state school for UG, and I'm sure people who have taken it very seriously at some point probably have better ideas of schools.

I'm surprised by that Stanford comment. I had heard of Harvard because it's Harvard*, but I also had heard of Yale because of presidential campaigns, and Stanford because every other article about Silicon valley somehow mentions it. I would say they all have tremendous reach.

Also bagel, if it makes you feel better, when I taught in Korea at a Hagwon, all of the classrooms were named after schools. There was Harvard, Oxford, Stanford, Columbia, and one or two others I've forgotten now, so it's cool that they had a school from the Northeast, England, California, and South America.

*Legally Blonde

Edit: Just remembered, another classroom was Cambridge

BigZuck
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:02 am

BigZuck wrote:this thread is shaping up quite nicely.

Alan Grant
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Alan Grant » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:55 pm

NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern

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Mozart Lacrimosa
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mozart Lacrimosa » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:58 pm

Do you have verified sources from laymen in all these areas?

Alan Grant wrote:NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern

Alan Grant
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Alan Grant » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:01 pm

Every
Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:Do you have verified sources from laymen in all these areas?

Alan Grant wrote:NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern


Everywhere but the MW. I am just kind of piecing that together. My level of confidence is greatest in the NE and South and somewhat weaker, but still strong, in the West.

nerd1
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby nerd1 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:15 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Columbia and UVA have the same class size, several hundred less than NYU or Harvard. I wouldn't call it "huge."


Loled at Columbia and UVA having class size "several hundred less" thanNYU or Harvard. I wouldn't call ~200 "several hundred". (in the case of NYU, the difference would be ~100)

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:16 pm

Alan Grant wrote:NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern


Lol Chicago has no lay prestige in the Midwest, even in Chicago among regular people. Notre Dame >>>>>>> Chicago

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metroidbum
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby metroidbum » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:22 pm

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nerd1
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby nerd1 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:22 pm

Alan Grant wrote:NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern


Very few laymen consider Michigan (except for computer science (Bill Joy) and engineering maybe), NYU, UVA, Northwestern to be elite schools.

Nobody I talked to thought highly of NYU. Outside the US, it's considered a school for academically mediocre kids from wealthy families. Michigan and UVA? "Yeah? good for you" sort of response.

None of this matters anyway.

To 0Ls: Don't put any significant weight on lay prestige. You will regret your choice if you do. It's a factor to consider, but only when you are choosing among schools in the same law school tier with financial factors taken into account.
Last edited by nerd1 on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby thatsnotmyname » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:25 pm

Alan Grant wrote:Every
Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:Do you have verified sources from laymen in all these areas?

Alan Grant wrote:NE: Harvard > Yale = Stanford > Columbia = Duke > Cornell = Penn > UVA = Michigan = Chicago = NYU > UC-Berkely > Northwestern

MW: Harvard > Yale = Chicago > Northwestern > Columbia = Stanford > Duke = Michigan > Penn = Cornell = UVA = NYU = UC-Berkely

W: Harvard = Stanford > Yale > UC-Berekely > Duke > Columbia > Chicago = Penn = UVA = Cornell = Michigan > NYU = Northwestern

S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern


Everywhere but the MW. I am just kind of piecing that together. My level of confidence is greatest in the NE and South and somewhat weaker, but still strong, in the West.


This thread was a lot more entertaining before it devolved into a lay prestige ranking, but at the risk of further derailing this thread, I'll point out that you left off Georgetown from your lay prestige rankings. Georgetown is probably the law school that benefits most from lay prestige (i.e. its lay prestige is a lot higher than #14 among the T14) as it seems that people are always super impressed when Georgetown gets name dropped, probably about equivalent to Duke in lay prestige. In lay prestige, it's probably approximately:

HYS
DG
and then everyone else based on regional differences with NYU and Chicago coming in towards the bottom. I actually can't figure out how you have Northwestern so low compared to Chicago in any of your lay prestige rankings except for maybe the midwest (even in the midwest Northwestern > Chicago in lay prestige but it would be closer). There are definitely way more people in the South and Northeast that know Northwestern is a good school versus knowing that Chicago is a good school. Chicago should fall back a lot in a lay prestige ranking. Really outside of HYS, GD are the two schools that have the most lay prestige nationwide. A large percentage of all people in all regions have heard of Georgetown and Duke because of their strong basketball programs over the years and everyone thinks that they are schools that smart, rich kids go to. A lot of people have heard of Cal, UVA, UMich but don't realize that they are strong schools academically outside of their regions and most people just think of them as typical state flagships like an Ohio St. or Penn St. Anyways, I'm done with the lay prestige ranking discussion for now, it was fun!

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MistakenGenius
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jbagelboy
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:13 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:Here's a ranking to make Bagel happy.



I'm so popular today.

Since this discussion has devolved into complete off topic bullshittery, might as well substantiate. Us News conveys lay recognition to the extent it maps onto selectivity, which is an actual objective metric of demand/"prestige," with *some* accuracy within ranges of schools. e.g.,

Selectivity for Universities (%) / "Rank"
1. Stanford (5.7) / #4
2. Harvard (5.8 ) / #2
3. Columbia (6.9) / #4
4. Yale (6.9) / #3
5. Princeton (7.4) / #1
6. MIT (8.2) / #7
7. University of Chicago (8.8 ) / #4
8. Brown (9.2) / #16
9. Dartmouth (10.4) / #11
10. CalTech (10.6) / #10
11. Penn (12.2) / #8
12. Duke (12.4) / #8
ect.

LACs (%) / "Rank"
1. Pomona / #4
2. Amherst / #2
3. Swarthmore / #3
4. Pitzer (outlier)
5. Bowdoin / #5
6. Middlebury / #7
7. Williams / #1
8. Harvey Mudd / #15
9. Wesleyan / #15
10. Carleton / #8
ect.

The individual ranking digits ("#3," "#11") mean nothing, but the clusters seem to.

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MichiganMan
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby MichiganMan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:34 pm

There is no doubt in my mind that Michigan will bounce back like a well-made tire.

All that is needed is patience.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:36 pm

Uchicago undergrad is majorly overrated by US NEWS in recent years imo, before like the last five years it was always around fifteen, but then they gamed the rankings hard and are pretending they're on the same level as HYPSM now

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jbagelboy
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:56 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Uchicago undergrad is majorly overrated by US NEWS in recent years imo, before like the last five years it was always around fifteen, but then they gamed the rankings hard and are pretending they're on the same level as HYPSM now


okay, why though? maybe its the echo chamber effect of rankings, but chicago can afford to be nearly as selective as harvard, columbia, yale, MIT. Moreover, its an incredibly well respected school with prolific faculty, global recognition and great grad school/career results for its graduates. Few institutions can claim their own self-styled intellectual moments in political economy or literature the way Chicago can. What makes a school "overrated"? because some people haven't heard of it? Most people don't know Bernardaud porcelain either, but that sure as shit doesn't make it overrated compared to target's Threshold brand Dinnerware set.

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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:08 pm

MichiganMan wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that Michigan will bounce back like a well-made tire.

All that is needed is patience.

Niiiiiiiice

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:27 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Uchicago undergrad is majorly overrated by US NEWS in recent years imo, before like the last five years it was always around fifteen, but then they gamed the rankings hard and are pretending they're on the same level as HYPSM now


okay, why though? maybe its the echo chamber effect of rankings, but chicago can afford to be nearly as selective as harvard, columbia, yale, MIT. Moreover, its an incredibly well respected school with prolific faculty, global recognition and great grad school/career results for its graduates. Few institutions can claim their own self-styled intellectual moments in political economy or literature the way Chicago can. What makes a school "overrated"? because some people haven't heard of it? Most people don't know Bernardaud porcelain either, but that sure as shit doesn't make it overrated compared to target's Threshold brand Dinnerware set.


Based on friends who were undergrads recently it doesn't seem to have near the placement or outcomes as schools US NEWS ranks under them (MIT, Penn, Duke, Caltech, Dartmouth etc) and continues to have the reputation of undergrads being weirdos in contrast to NW having normal well adjusted kids. I'm also not talking about the school as a whole/grad programs, just their undergrad.

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jbagelboy
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:39 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Uchicago undergrad is majorly overrated by US NEWS in recent years imo, before like the last five years it was always around fifteen, but then they gamed the rankings hard and are pretending they're on the same level as HYPSM now


okay, why though? maybe its the echo chamber effect of rankings, but chicago can afford to be nearly as selective as harvard, columbia, yale, MIT. Moreover, its an incredibly well respected school with prolific faculty, global recognition and great grad school/career results for its graduates. Few institutions can claim their own self-styled intellectual moments in political economy or literature the way Chicago can. What makes a school "overrated"? because some people haven't heard of it? Most people don't know Bernardaud porcelain either, but that sure as shit doesn't make it overrated compared to target's Threshold brand Dinnerware set.


Based on friends who were undergrads recently it doesn't seem to have near the placement or outcomes as schools US NEWS ranks under them (MIT, Penn, Duke, Caltech, Dartmouth etc) and continues to have the reputation of undergrads being weirdos in contrast to NW having normal well adjusted kids. I'm also not talking about the school as a whole/grad programs, just their undergrad.


haha well they might be total weirdos, not going to contest that.

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anyriotgirl
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby anyriotgirl » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:00 pm

It's probably because their application is so bizarre. I took one look at it and was like lolnope, back to the common app thx

thatsnotmyname
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby thatsnotmyname » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:05 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Uchicago undergrad is majorly overrated by US NEWS in recent years imo, before like the last five years it was always around fifteen, but then they gamed the rankings hard and are pretending they're on the same level as HYPSM now


okay, why though? maybe its the echo chamber effect of rankings, but chicago can afford to be nearly as selective as harvard, columbia, yale, MIT. Moreover, its an incredibly well respected school with prolific faculty, global recognition and great grad school/career results for its graduates. Few institutions can claim their own self-styled intellectual moments in political economy or literature the way Chicago can. What makes a school "overrated"? because some people haven't heard of it? Most people don't know Bernardaud porcelain either, but that sure as shit doesn't make it overrated compared to target's Threshold brand Dinnerware set.


I haven't really followed UChicago's moves through the USNWR undergraduate college rankings over the years, but I do remember when I was in high school looking at college rankings like a decade ago (wow, I'm old) and developed my sense of school preftige that it was essentially NU and UChicago were peer schools. When I look at the rankings today, it looks like UChicago undergrad is a notch above Northwestern and closer to HYPSM. It is difficult for me to attribut this to anything other than year-over-year fluctuations in the USNWR rankings and it is a very limited perspective, but it does seem that UChicago has focused on ensuring that their undergrad moved up in the USNWR rankings.

The drastic decline in admissions rate at UChicago is a relatively recent trend (http://chicagomaroon.com/2011/04/05/adm ... ate-falls/). Even when the admissions rate was "high" at UChicago it was still an incredibly prestigious school with renowned academics but of course they for whatever reason have more "lay prestige" now and are able to drop the admissions rate as more applicants apply. Either way I'm not saying that UChicago undergrad is overrated or underrated by USNWR, I'm just saying that I think that it's very likely that they definitely decided to focus their efforts on making sure that they were addressing all of the metrics to ensure that they could move up in the USNWR rankings.

An interesting link I came across: http://web.archive.org/web/200709081424 ... ts/usnews/

Looking at that link, it looks like UChi was ranked quite high in the initial USNWR surveys and then around the late 90s-mid 00s begin to slip to the mid-teens. So when looking at it this way, you could say that UChi decided to likely refocus on the USNWR metrics and "correct" their rankings moreso than actually them ever moving up.

Looking at the link, it looks like most schools have remained relatively stagnant in the USNWR rankings (through 2007 at least, couldn't find a more up to date link). There are some notable exceptions though where schools have really moved up a lot. Penn, WUSTL, and USC it seems are the schools that would likely be the most guilty of trying to "game" the USNWR rankings just looking at their rather sudden rises in the rankings.

Alan Grant
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Alan Grant » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:08 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Alan Grant wrote:S: Harvard > Duke > Yale > UVA > Stanford > Columbia > Cornell > Penn = Michigan = Chicago = UC-Berkely > NYU = Northwestern


You might be right about the others, IDK, but I was most definitely a blue collar layman (absolutely broke family in poor town) in SC, and I need to make some serious changes to have the South be right. It's just horrible. From your rankings, it seems you're either from Virginia which is not very Southern anymore or Florida (Florida is NOT a Southern state). As I said before, Vandy and Emory would go after Duke, but I'll just do the T14 like the other guys did.

Harvard >>>> Yale > Duke >> Columbia > Stanford > Cornell (a lot of people learned about it from Andy from the Office) >>> Georgetown = Berkeley > UVA > Penn = Michigan = NYU > Northwestern > Chicago

Here's a ranking to make Bagel happy.

Columbia >>>>> Columbia again >>>>> Harvard = Columbia a third time (there are no other schools)

But seriously, as I said before, when it comes to lay prestige, Harvard crushes everything. Of all universities, I'd say Oxford carries the next most weight, then MIT, Princeton, and Yale make up the next 3. That's going to be relatively consistent, with Stanford being up in the West. After that, it's entirely regional, although I think Duke would be top 8 or so in any list.


I was, perhaps, speaking for individuals slightly less lay than yourself. In at least Texas, Florida, Georgia (well, maybe just Atlanta), and North Carolina I think my ranking for the South holds true. If an individual goes to a T14 and ends up working in the South, then they are very likely to be in one of these places, so these are the places that matter most.

BTW––I liked your point about Cornell. Popular culture really does affect lay prestige. Without Legally Blonde or the Firm, Harvard might just be ">>>>" instead of ">>>>>" more prestigious than Columbia.




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