what's up with Michigan

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:09 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:

accepting splitter dumbs would probably all help.


Yeah bro calling splitters dumb is going to win you a whole lot of fans around here.

But yeah you are overthinking it. If they

1. Emphasized work experience in admissions like NU
2. Threw around money like NU/duke

Their problems would go away tomorrow.


High GPA/low LSATs are likely dumb. Plus, the law student GPA/LSAT medians have gone way down since I was in law school, so current law students are dumber than when I was in school. The smartest people are choosing not to go to law school.

But yeah, probably throwing money around, emphasizing work experience, cutting class sizes (this is a big one I think), etc. would make Michigan jump up above Berkeley/Duke. Also, employing their own grads (like UVA does - doesn't UVA employ 20% of its own grads if not more?) would help too.


Splitter means the opposite: high lsat/low gpa. And I hardly think gpa/lsat is a fair proxy for intelligence.


Reverse splitter then.

The LSAT is a pretty reasonable proxy, although I guess if someone has to take it 3 times to do well, then they are likely dumb.

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jbagelboy
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:30 pm

As someone who received a 99+%ile score, I think the LSAT is a really shitty proxy for intelligence (and so is "undergraduate GPA" since colleges are so different): first, as you said, law schools no longer average scores so you can have a high of 174 and a low of 159. Does that make you "smart" or "dumb"? Second and relatedly, the LSAT is learnable: a high score just means you had access to resources and time to study a lot. It doesn't indicate you're smarter. Third and most importantly, the LSAT tests a particular set of skills that are in no way comprehensive of human intellect, or even occidental norms of intellect. No real evaluation of writing skill or prose, zero spacial or situational reasoning, zero human contact/conversational reasoning, zero sophisticated quantitative reasoning, the list goes on and on, and to the extent the test does capture certain skills, it does so with a problematic inflection. So no, the LSAT is garbage, whether I killed it or not.

Now, the stubbornness to refuse to retake? THAT we can agree is stupidity.

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Mozart Lacrimosa
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mozart Lacrimosa » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:34 pm

I don't agree with people saying Michigan doesn't have the $$. The university endowment is about $10 billion, that's ivy league level. Definitely bigger than some of the schools outperforming it in the law rankings.

I think usnews wanted to shake things up and Umich was an easy target because of anomalous jobs season and decreasing lay prestige. The ugrad is the school of choice for Cali and NY state flunkies.

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skers
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby skers » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:36 pm

skers wrote:lol. we don't care about the drop in the usnews rankings. We're talking about longterm placement differences.

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wojo98
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby wojo98 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:53 pm

skers wrote:
skers wrote:lol. we don't care about the drop in the usnews rankings. We're talking about longterm placement differences.

Exactly. Michigan annually lagged UVA, Duke, NU, Cornell, etc. in large firm placement going back to at least 2007 (i.e. before the recession). 2007-2012 data here (too lazy to update for 2013/2014, but recent data reinforces UM underperformance relative to peers and their USNWR rankings).

ETA: the litany of other schools
Last edited by wojo98 on Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BigZuck
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:00 pm

Guys, please.

Let's stop making fun of Michigan until March of 2017.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:06 pm

jbagelboy wrote:As someone who received a 99+%ile score, I think the LSAT is a really shitty proxy for intelligence (and so is "undergraduate GPA" since colleges are so different): first, as you said, law schools no longer average scores so you can have a high of 174 and a low of 159. Does that make you "smart" or "dumb"? Second and relatedly, the LSAT is learnable: a high score just means you had access to resources and time to study a lot. It doesn't indicate you're smarter. Third and most importantly, the LSAT tests a particular set of skills that are in no way comprehensive of human intellect, or even occidental norms of intellect. No real evaluation of writing skill or prose, zero spacial or situational reasoning, zero human contact/conversational reasoning, zero sophisticated quantitative reasoning, the list goes on and on, and to the extent the test does capture certain skills, it does so with a problematic inflection. So no, the LSAT is garbage, whether I killed it or not.

Now, the stubbornness to refuse to retake? THAT we can agree is stupidity.


It's not garbage. there are people out there who can't crack 170, no matter how hard they try. They are likely dumb.

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chuckbass
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:06 pm

jbagelboy wrote:As someone who received a 99+%ile score, I think the LSAT is a really shitty proxy for intelligence (and so is "undergraduate GPA" since colleges are so different): first, as you said, law schools no longer average scores so you can have a high of 174 and a low of 159. Does that make you "smart" or "dumb"? Second and relatedly, the LSAT is learnable: a high score just means you had access to resources and time to study a lot. It doesn't indicate you're smarter. Third and most importantly, the LSAT tests a particular set of skills that are in no way comprehensive of human intellect, or even occidental norms of intellect. No real evaluation of writing skill or prose, zero spacial or situational reasoning, zero human contact/conversational reasoning, zero sophisticated quantitative reasoning, the list goes on and on, and to the extent the test does capture certain skills, it does so with a problematic inflection. So no, the LSAT is garbage, whether I killed it or not.

Now, the stubbornness to refuse to retake? THAT we can agree is stupidity.

This new poster sucks, don't feed him.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:09 pm

Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:I don't agree with people saying Michigan doesn't have the $$. The university endowment is about $10 billion, that's ivy league level. Definitely bigger than some of the schools outperforming it in the law rankings.

I think usnews wanted to shake things up and Umich was an easy target because of anomalous jobs season and decreasing lay prestige. The ugrad is the school of choice for Cali and NY state flunkies.


Right- Michigan has the money to throw around more scholarships (and probably should). It is one of the richest law schools in the country. As for lay prestige, I think it has more lay prestige than NYU, NU, Chicago and UVA and maybe Penn and is widely known among football fans.

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runinthefront
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby runinthefront » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:13 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:I don't agree with people saying Michigan doesn't have the $$. The university endowment is about $10 billion, that's ivy league level. Definitely bigger than some of the schools outperforming it in the law rankings.

I think usnews wanted to shake things up and Umich was an easy target because of anomalous jobs season and decreasing lay prestige. The ugrad is the school of choice for Cali and NY state flunkies.


Right- Michigan has the money to throw around more scholarships (and probably should). It is one of the richest law schools in the country. As for lay prestige, I think it has more lay prestige than NYU, NU, Chicago and UVA and maybe Penn and is widely known among football fans.


In the Midwest? Sure. Over Chicago? Maybe. Over NYU/Northwestern/Penn/UVA? No way.

I'm a college football fan myself, and I never, ever thought to myself, "Wow, Louisiana State University must be a fine academic institution!"

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:16 pm

runinthefront wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Mozart Lacrimosa wrote:I don't agree with people saying Michigan doesn't have the $$. The university endowment is about $10 billion, that's ivy league level. Definitely bigger than some of the schools outperforming it in the law rankings.

I think usnews wanted to shake things up and Umich was an easy target because of anomalous jobs season and decreasing lay prestige. The ugrad is the school of choice for Cali and NY state flunkies.


Right- Michigan has the money to throw around more scholarships (and probably should). It is one of the richest law schools in the country. As for lay prestige, I think it has more lay prestige than NYU, NU, Chicago and UVA and maybe Penn and is widely known among football fans.


In the Midwest? Sure. Over Chicago? Maybe. Over NYU/Northwestern/Penn/UVA? No way.

I'm a college football fan myself, and I never, ever thought to myself, "Wow, Louisiana State University must be a fine academic institution!"


I'm not from the Midwest and have a science background so I knew Michigan was a good science school before law school. Never heard of NYU/UVA in any academic setting. I thought Penn was Penn State (although should have probably known better than that). I did know of Northwestern and thought it was decently good but it's largely unknown to people on the coasts, for whatever reason. I think Northwestern is confused with "Northeastern"in certain regions.

I will say my viewpoint is colored by the fact that I come from a hard science/engineering background though, and Michigan is a lot better/known than those schools in the engineering/hard sciences. If you ask the average engineer/scientist/doctor, I'm sure they'd agree with me.

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chuckbass
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:34 pm

Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:47 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


A lot of people confuse it for Penn State, esp. those outside of the Northeast. Not a schtick - it's very common.

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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby shadowfax » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:01 pm

Michigan is a conundrum. No local hiring market. The death of Detroit. A fall from 3 to 11. They have built a beautiful new building, and redone the Lawyers Club. They have reduced class size, tweaked grades, and replaced everyone in career planning. They are trying hard in the face of a constantly changing legal world. They have horrible diversity numbers as dictated by state law, which you would think should help their medians. They have made some bad recent teaching hires when they should have been upgrading. That's inexcusable. They are trying but a continued slide seems inevitable.
Last edited by shadowfax on Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:01 pm

ITT: MichiGONE fanboys come up with excuses

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sublime
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby sublime » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:37 pm

..

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lawschool1741
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby lawschool1741 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:33 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
I'm not from the Midwest and have a science background so I knew Michigan was a good science school before law school. Never heard of NYU/UVA in any academic setting. I thought Penn was Penn State (although should have probably known better than that). I did know of Northwestern and thought it was decently good but it's largely unknown to people on the coasts, for whatever reason. I think Northwestern is confused with "Northeastern"in certain regions.

I will say my viewpoint is colored by the fact that I come from a hard science/engineering background though, and Michigan is a lot better/known than those schools in the engineering/hard sciences. If you ask the average engineer/scientist/doctor, I'm sure they'd agree with me.

Lol

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:08 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


I'm from the Midwest and I guarantee you non of my co-workers know the difference between penn and Penn state, only rich people and I'm guessing more people from the northeast are aware of it.

Also how did this turn into a lay prestige thread

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chuckbass
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby chuckbass » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:29 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


I'm from the Midwest and I guarantee you non of my co-workers know the difference between penn and Penn state, only rich people and I'm guessing more people from the northeast are aware of it.

Also how did this turn into a lay prestige thread

Thank you for your insight, but my comment was directed at the other bro, so your comment about it is irrelevant. Given the bro's schtick, it'd be egregious that he didn't know what Penn was.

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Mozart Lacrimosa
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Mozart Lacrimosa » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:28 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


I'm from the Midwest and I guarantee you non of my co-workers know the difference between penn and Penn state, only rich people and I'm guessing more people from the northeast are aware of it.

Also how did this turn into a lay prestige thread


Plenty of people in the midwest don't even know about UChicago relative to UIUC. I agree that the upper echelon schools don't affect 99.9% of Americans so that's not a knock on joe the plumber.

What is usnews rankings for other than lay prestige?

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:43 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Dude your schtick is seriously running out if you didn't know what Penn was.


I'm from the Midwest and I guarantee you non of my co-workers know the difference between penn and Penn state, only rich people and I'm guessing more people from the northeast are aware of it.

Also how did this turn into a lay prestige thread

Thank you for your insight, but my comment was directed at the other bro, so your comment about it is irrelevant. Given the bro's schtick, it'd be egregious that he didn't know what Penn was.


Like I noted, I'm not from the Northeast - nobody outside of the Northeast knows the difference between Penn and Penn State. Not really a schtick - didn't apply for undergrad even though I had the numbers because I had never heard of it/nobody where I am from went there.

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dabigchina
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby dabigchina » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:47 pm

why is everyone talking about Penn itt?

we need to go back to talking about how michigan is a TTT in decline. i think we need to beat that dead horse some more.

03152016
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby 03152016 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:49 pm

i think people are generally aware of penn actually
they got a lot of national attention with that whole paterno thing

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:03 am

Brut wrote:i think people are generally aware of penn actually
they got a lot of national attention with that whole paterno thing


Go Nittany Lions!

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Saddle Up
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Re: what's up with Michigan

Postby Saddle Up » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:08 am

I briefly checked out Mich on LST. They look fine. Granted they’re not in the same league as CCNP but neither are the three schools bottled up at #8. The only question I came away with was, why is Mich ranked ahead of Cornell?




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