St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

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bankofmouse
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St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby bankofmouse » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:38 pm

As a recent graduate of St. Mary’s University School of Law, my number one piece of advice in deciding to attend STMU is to set your expectations accordingly. STMU is consistently ranked in the 4th tier and in recent years its bar passage rate has hovered around second to last in the state. However, that being said, STMU does not attempt to be a national 4th tier JD mill like some schools. One of the advantages of St. Mary’s is the fact that it is the only law school located within a decent-sized city (San Antonio – 1.4 million). Because of that, most graduates are successful in obtaining employment as attorneys (hence the high employment rate in ranking stats). However, before you get too excited, this is where expectations have to be managed. Most of my classmates went on to work for small firms (think 5-10 attorneys or less), the DA’s office, non-profits, or are attempting to go it alone. Biglaw placements in San Antonio are a rare exception for St. Mary’s grads. For example, from what I can peruse from their website, Akin Gump’s San Antonio office has 1 Partner and 1 Senior Attorney , and 0 associates who graduated from St. Mary’s. The vast majority of the more recent associates came from UT. Similarly, Norton Rose Fulbright (previously Fulbright & Jaworski), has 4 associates and 5 counsels (not sure what the difference between the two is) who graduated from St. Mary’s. Those attorneys came from the classes of 1987, 1996, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013. Additionally Strasburger has 4 associates from the classes of 1992, 2009, and 2014. Point is—there are occasional biglaw positions that come up, but they are sporadic and an applicant should not by any means attend STMU with the expectation of a biglaw job—even if you are at the top of the class with law review etc. The big question that most prospective students have is how much they can expect to make at their first job. Based on anecdotal evidence from discussions with some of my former classmates, I would advise a potential applicant to expect to land a job earning about $40-$50k right out of school and plan accordingly.

BigZuck
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:45 pm

bankofmouse wrote:As a recent graduate of St. Mary’s University School of Law, my number one piece of advice in deciding to attend STMU is to set your expectations accordingly. STMU is consistently ranked in the 4th tier and in recent years its bar passage rate has hovered around second to last in the state. However, that being said, STMU does not attempt to be a national 4th tier JD mill like some schools. One of the advantages of St. Mary’s is the fact that it is the only law school located within a decent-sized city (San Antonio – 1.4 million). Because of that, most graduates are successful in obtaining employment as attorneys (hence the high employment rate in ranking stats). However, before you get too excited, this is where expectations have to be managed. Most of my classmates went on to work for small firms (think 5-10 attorneys or less), the DA’s office, non-profits, or are attempting to go it alone. Biglaw placements in San Antonio are a rare exception for St. Mary’s grads. For example, from what I can peruse from their website, Akin Gump’s San Antonio office has 1 Partner and 1 Senior Attorney , and 0 associates who graduated from St. Mary’s. The vast majority of the more recent associates came from UT. Similarly, Norton Rose Fulbright (previously Fulbright & Jaworski), has 4 associates and 5 counsels (not sure what the difference between the two is) who graduated from St. Mary’s. Those attorneys came from the classes of 1987, 1996, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013. Additionally Strasburger has 4 associates from the classes of 1992, 2009, and 2014. Point is—there are occasional biglaw positions that come up, but they are sporadic and an applicant should not by any means attend STMU with the expectation of a biglaw job—even if you are at the top of the class with law review etc. The big question that most prospective students have is how much they can expect to make at their first job. Based on anecdotal evidence from discussions with some of my former classmates, I would advise a potential applicant to expect to land a job earning about $40-$50k right out of school and plan accordingly.


Is this a taking questions thread?

How much debt are most of your classmates in, would you say? And do you think what the school provides is worth the cost?

Where do you draw the line between toilet and not a toilet? Texas does seem to have a few lower ranked schools with decent LST scores, are you basing the toilet line on the percentage employed as a lawyer 9 months out?

Nomo
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby Nomo » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:49 pm

This looks pretty bleak to me: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/stmarys/2013/

Seems like you've got about a 50/50 shot of gettting a job that pays 40-50k out of the gate. About a 25% shot of doing non-legal or part-time work. And about a 25% shot of opening a solo practice (good luck with that).

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:51 pm

do you work for the school

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Manteca
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby Manteca » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:54 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:do you work for the school

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby zombie mcavoy » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:35 pm

50% chance of unemployment, 200K sticker price, and a 1.5% chance at a job that pays better than 60K?

I agree that it is not necessarily a toilet: It's more like an old shitter tank.

mvp99
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby mvp99 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:54 pm

this will be interesting

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:41 pm

Statistically speaking it's got toilet prospects for most grads.

ilikebaseball
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby ilikebaseball » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:49 pm

bankofmouse wrote:As a recent graduate of St. Mary’s University School of Law, my number one piece of advice in deciding to attend STMU is to set your expectations accordingly. STMU is consistently ranked in the 4th tier and in recent years its bar passage rate has hovered around second to last in the state. However, that being said, STMU does not attempt to be a national 4th tier JD mill like some schools. One of the advantages of St. Mary’s is the fact that it is the only law school located within a decent-sized city (San Antonio – 1.4 million). Because of that, most graduates are successful in obtaining employment as attorneys (hence the high employment rate in ranking stats). However, before you get too excited, this is where expectations have to be managed. Most of my classmates went on to work for small firms (think 5-10 attorneys or less), the DA’s office, non-profits, or are attempting to go it alone. Biglaw placements in San Antonio are a rare exception for St. Mary’s grads. For example, from what I can peruse from their website, Akin Gump’s San Antonio office has 1 Partner and 1 Senior Attorney , and 0 associates who graduated from St. Mary’s. The vast majority of the more recent associates came from UT. Similarly, Norton Rose Fulbright (previously Fulbright & Jaworski), has 4 associates and 5 counsels (not sure what the difference between the two is) who graduated from St. Mary’s. Those attorneys came from the classes of 1987, 1996, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013. Additionally Strasburger has 4 associates from the classes of 1992, 2009, and 2014. Point is—there are occasional biglaw positions that come up, but they are sporadic and an applicant should not by any means attend STMU with the expectation of a biglaw job—even if you are at the top of the class with law review etc. The big question that most prospective students have is how much they can expect to make at their first job. Based on anecdotal evidence from discussions with some of my former classmates, I would advise a potential applicant to expect to land a job earning about $40-$50k right out of school and plan accordingly.


52% is high? Jeez. That's using the word "most" to the EXACT definition of the word..

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gilessanderson
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby gilessanderson » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:05 pm

So as long as my expectation out of law school is to be unemployed, then it's a more reasonable decision to go?

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rpupkin
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby rpupkin » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:12 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:50% chance of unemployment, 200K sticker price, and a 1.5% chance at a job that pays better than 60K?

I agree that it is not necessarily a toilet: It's more like an old shitter tank.

Where are you getting your numbers from?

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DELG
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby DELG » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:14 pm

I will give you this, not a notorious toilet

After all I have never even heard of it

ilikebaseball
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby ilikebaseball » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:18 pm

We played St. Mary's in college many times. The law school #'s speak for themselves... but it was also easily the ugliest campus in our entire conference, and every store/restaurant/place of business was completely in spanish. Like, if you don't know spanish, you can hardly tell a grocery store from a mini mall.

Its not even defendable. Not even a "well its in a great area and the campus is fun and vibrant" sort of thing. Its a TTTT college in general.

The opposing players were bros though. Recommended some good bars along the Riverwalk

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rpupkin
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby rpupkin » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 pm

I know folks are having fun shitting all over the OP and the OP's law school, but I'm not sure that schools like St. Mary's are the biggest problem with legal education. Its LSN employment scores are better than those of the dumpster fires at Hastings and American. (Actually, St. Mary's LSN score looks similar to those of many of the schools ranked between 40 and 50.) The school charges $33K/yr instead of $50K/yr. And it's located in a city with a relatively low COA.

I'm not saying the typical St. Mary's 1L has made a great career decision. But if you get some modest financial aid, want to work as a lawyer in San Antonio, and go into the school with the OP's attitude (which is basically reasonable), you're making a defensible choice.

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DaRascal
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby DaRascal » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:50 pm

Hmmm well I just checked the law school rankings and St. Mary's University is "RNP", which I suppose means ranking not provided, but that's gotta be very bad because there's a 5 way tie at 149, so that means that St. Mary's is no better than the 154th best law school.

Don't go to this school!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:07 pm

DaRascal wrote:Hmmm well I just checked the law school rankings and St. Mary's University is "RNP", which I suppose means ranking not provided, but that's gotta be very bad because there's a 5 way tie at 149, so that means that St. Mary's is no better than the 154th best law school.

Don't go to this school!

Stop doing this pointless ranking thing. You have a cage for a reason.

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DaRascal
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby DaRascal » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:10 pm

Sorry, Nony, just wanted to share how I would pick if I were in OP's position. :oops:

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:11 pm

DaRascal wrote:Sorry, Nony, just wanted to share how I would pick if I were in OP's position. :oops:

Suggesting people pay any attention to USNWR rankings is bad advice.

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Desert Fox
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:20 pm

I did CCD at St Mary's church. Is this the same thing?

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby zombie mcavoy » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:31 am

rpupkin wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:50% chance of unemployment, 200K sticker price, and a 1.5% chance at a job that pays better than 60K?

I agree that it is not necessarily a toilet: It's more like an old shitter tank.

Where are you getting your numbers from?

Where do you think?

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:11 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
DaRascal wrote:Hmmm well I just checked the law school rankings and St. Mary's University is "RNP", which I suppose means ranking not provided, but that's gotta be very bad because there's a 5 way tie at 149, so that means that St. Mary's is no better than the 154th best law school.

Don't go to this school!

Stop doing this pointless ranking thing. You have a cage for a reason.


Nony, you know I love you and I think all the mods do great work but take him out behind the woodshed already.

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LawBron James
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby LawBron James » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:36 am

rpupkin wrote:I know folks are having fun shitting all over the OP and the OP's law school, but I'm not sure that schools like St. Mary's are the biggest problem with legal education. Its LSN employment scores are better than those of the dumpster fires at Hastings and American. (Actually, St. Mary's LSN score looks similar to those of many of the schools ranked between 40 and 50.) The school charges $33K/yr instead of $50K/yr. And it's located in a city with a relatively low COA.

I'm not saying the typical St. Mary's 1L has made a great career decision. But if you get some modest financial aid, want to work as a lawyer in San Antonio, and go into the school with the OP's attitude (which is basically reasonable), you're making a defensible choice.

Using 3 years of your life for about a coin flip's chance of achieving your goal is a pretty risky proposition, but you're definitely right that they're not as predatory as some of the other dumps out there, and 52% actually looks decent in comparison.

Just the fact that I've never even heard of them has to be a positive. I thought St Mary's was in California.

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ballcaps
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby ballcaps » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:52 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
DaRascal wrote:Hmmm well I just checked the law school rankings and St. Mary's University is "RNP", which I suppose means ranking not provided, but that's gotta be very bad because there's a 5 way tie at 149, so that means that St. Mary's is no better than the 154th best law school.

Don't go to this school!

Stop doing this pointless ranking thing. You have a cage for a reason.


Nony, you know I love you and I think all the mods do great work but take him out behind the woodshed already.

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jbagelboy
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:42 pm

What is this post intending to prove

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amw342
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Re: St. Mary's Univ. - 4th Tier But Not Neccesarily a Toilet

Postby amw342 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:26 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:50% chance of unemployment, 200K sticker price, and a 1.5% chance at a job that pays better than 60K?

I agree that it is not necessarily a toilet: It's more like an old shitter tank.


lol I actually laughed out loud to myself.




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