Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
ballcaps
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:20 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby ballcaps » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:20 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:lol don't think jobs have ever been the number one consideration for any published lists...there's always been some hot air thrown into the equation

i just looked and mich does have a low biglaw + fedclerk score though. presumably average COA is also lower than other t14s


Jerbless but $250k in debt rather than $280k. What a bargain.

hahahahah who are you?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2013/

i guess chicago >>> Y because:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/chicago/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/yale/2013/

p.s. you sound like an utter tool when you say things like
Mal Reynolds wrote:Michigan is a terrible school.

BigZuck
Posts: 10852
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:36 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
haha. I got that from the HYS -> CCN -> PV...etc breakdowns people post on here (i think they normally group Penn and Mich). i agree that the job data favor penn



Those groupings are generally based on admissions criteria (HYS is hardest to get into, CCN a little easier, MVPB a little easier than that, DCNG easier than that) also kinda based on job outcomes (HYS has better outcomes than CCN, CCN has better outcomes than MVPB, etc.) but mostly it's just kind of TLS convention and not worth trying to decipher those tiers because you can find all sorts of exceptions.


penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better

User avatar
r1tlv50
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby r1tlv50 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:48 pm

Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better


u mad?

BigZuck
Posts: 10852
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:23 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:
Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better


u mad?


Naw. U?

Mal Reynolds
Posts: 12630
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:24 pm

ballcaps wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:lol don't think jobs have ever been the number one consideration for any published lists...there's always been some hot air thrown into the equation

i just looked and mich does have a low biglaw + fedclerk score though. presumably average COA is also lower than other t14s


Jerbless but $250k in debt rather than $280k. What a bargain.

hahahahah who are you?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2013/

i guess chicago >>> Y because:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/chicago/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/yale/2013/

p.s. you sound like an utter tool when you say things like
Mal Reynolds wrote:Michigan is a terrible school.


But it is a terrible school. What are these links supposed to tell me.

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby 03152016 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:49 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:58 pm

Brut wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc

I actually agree with Brut here.

Michigan drops out of the top 10, and shit gets crazy.

User avatar
Aeon
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Aeon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:07 pm

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15464
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:10 pm

Aeon wrote:I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Please point me to the row in the employment data listing BigFed jobs and I'll add them in

Mal Reynolds
Posts: 12630
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:11 pm

ljl ad fed gov jobs.

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Winston1984 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:13 pm

Aeon wrote:I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Because we can easily measure these. Hard to know if a PI job is a good gig or not. The argument could be made that BL numbers could be inflated due to clerks or something though. Not sure it's enough to really be meaningful.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:14 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
Aeon wrote:I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Because we can easily measure these. Hard to know if a PI job is a good gig or not. The argument could be made that BL numbers could be inflated due to clerks or something though. Not sure it's enough to really be meaningful.

Wut?

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby 03152016 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:15 pm

he's saying that the 101+ figure in 509s includes non-associate positions

User avatar
Mack.Hambleton
Posts: 5417
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:15 pm

Michigan has more unemployed seeking (29) than all government jobs (28). I'm guessing not all of those government jobs are prestigious big Fed either

User avatar
r1tlv50
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby r1tlv50 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:17 pm

Aeon wrote:I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.


Just a pretty easy rule of thumb and it goes on the assumption most BL jobs are comparable relative to each other (PI and government jobs likely vary a little more in job responsibilities/sophistication/prestige/etc). For most of us, a job at a big firm is the most realistic way of paying back law school debt in a reasonable amount of time.

User avatar
r1tlv50
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby r1tlv50 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:20 pm

Brut wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc


That's interesting. Are OCI success rates publicly available?

User avatar
Aeon
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Aeon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:28 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Michigan has more unemployed seeking (29) than all government jobs (28). I'm guessing not all of those government jobs are prestigious big Fed either


Michigan has lagged in school-funded jobs for a while, but I heard that they beefed up the program recently. I wonder whether future unemployed numbers will be lower because of that.

User avatar
Aeon
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby Aeon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:36 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:
Aeon wrote:I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.


Just a pretty easy rule of thumb and it goes on the assumption most BL jobs are comparable relative to each other (PI and government jobs likely vary a little more in job responsibilities/sophistication/prestige/etc). For most of us, a job at a big firm is the most realistic way of paying back law school debt in a reasonable amount of time.


So they're a rough proxy. Fair enough. When I was applying to law schools, it was pretty much a shot in the dark with employment outcomes. It does help to have more information out there. Past performance not being an indicator of future success (and with some degree of self-selection going on), I'd still take the numbers with a grain of salt.

BigZuck
Posts: 10852
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:40 pm

Just go to Michigan guys, it was T3 in like 1982 who cares about data grain of salt self selection, etc.

User avatar
metroidbum
Posts: 905
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby metroidbum » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:42 pm

.
Last edited by metroidbum on Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bowser
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby bowser » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:42 pm

Haven't seen them myself, but many have said when it comes to grade cutoffs Michigan is same as other schools in its range.

I think the primary factor must be geographic location of where Michigan people look for jobs. Not saying that's the only factor, but I think it accounts for a lot of the lagging.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:46 pm

metroidbum wrote:Michigan's LST numbers are better than Berkeley and GULC, and just below Duke/Northwestern

But yeah, its a TTT

C'mon dude, don't exaggerate. Michigan is a solid T1.

BigZuck
Posts: 10852
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:46 pm

bowser wrote:Haven't seen them myself, but many have said when it comes to grade cutoffs Michigan is same as other schools in its range.

I think the primary factor must be geographic location of where Michigan people look for jobs. Not saying that's the only factor, but I think it accounts for a lot of the lagging.

Yeah, the students are failing the school not vice versa, I agree

User avatar
baal hadad
Posts: 3168
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby baal hadad » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:47 pm

DROVES or employers fleeing UMich oci

User avatar
runinthefront
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:18 am

Re: Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed

Postby runinthefront » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:00 am

Michigan is definitely a worthy "T14" in terms of reputation, portability and employment outcomes; I think what most people tend to point out is that it's now closer to the more lower ranked schools than it is to schools like Virginia and Penn--on paper, and in light of its readily ascertainable employment outcomes.

Also, speculating at things like "grade cut-offs" between/amongst different schools is pretty dubious

Still doesn't change the fact that there's less than 12 schools in the country with better placement power
Last edited by runinthefront on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests