HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which would you pick in my situation

HLS
43
60%
Columbia
29
40%
 
Total votes: 72

Indifference
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Indifference » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:53 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
mujiali wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:negotiate

highly doubt you wouldnt be able to get one


Well as it stands I don't even have acceptances/scholarships to lower T-10s to negotiate on, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.


you really have zero acceptances from MVPBDCN?

you should also be able to get more than a butler equivalent from Chicago


Literally zero.
Been waiting on Mich, Penn, and Duke since early Jan.
Had my Chicago interview today, so as of right now it is in the running, just not in the equation.

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rpupkin
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:53 pm

mujiali wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:negotiate

highly doubt you wouldnt be able to get one


Well as it stands I don't even have acceptances/scholarships to lower T-10s to negotiate on, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

ETA: I'm not sure why this is so contested tbh. I have these offers. They are my only offers. Which of the two offers would you take, if they were what you had? That is all I was/am asking.

Based on your description, it sounds like you didn't even apply to Chicago, NYU, Berkeley, and UVA. Any of those with a full ride would be preferable to your current options.

You would really benefit from taking a year or two off before law school. But, yes, of your current options, I think that HLS is worth an extra $30K over CLS.

ETA: I see that you did apply to UChi and have yet to receive anything.

Indifference
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Indifference » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:56 pm

rpupkin wrote:
mujiali wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:negotiate

highly doubt you wouldnt be able to get one


Well as it stands I don't even have acceptances/scholarships to lower T-10s to negotiate on, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

ETA: I'm not sure why this is so contested tbh. I have these offers. They are my only offers. Which of the two offers would you take, if they were what you had? That is all I was/am asking.

Based on your description, it sounds like you didn't even apply to Chicago, NYU, Berkeley, and UVA. Any of those with a full ride would be preferable to your current options.

You would really benefit from taking a year or two off before law school. But, yes, of your current options, I think that HLS is worth an extra $30K over CLS.

ETA: I see that you did apply to UChi and have yet to receive anything.


My application would have been too late to be considered for NYU institutional scholarships; I would have otherwise. I have no interest in being in either California or VA, so I did not apply to Berkely or UVA. I think having personal reasons to apply or not apply places is perfectly reasonable, no?

ETA: Thank you for your answer to my question, though. :)

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bmo
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby bmo » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:12 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:negotiate

highly doubt you wouldnt be able to get one


I find it hard to believe that it's possible to negotiate from $0 or a WL->acceptance to a full ride. If it is possible, I doubt it's common enough that it would be practical to make plans based upon anticipating such a pleasant surprise.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:10 pm

mujiali wrote: I think having personal reasons to apply or not apply places is perfectly reasonable, no?

Nope. You apply for scholarship leverage. Your ship has sailed, but in case anyone with similar numbers is lurking please apply broadly.

bmo wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:negotiate

highly doubt you wouldnt be able to get one


I find it hard to believe that it's possible to negotiate from $0 or a WL->acceptance to a full ride. If it is possible, I doubt it's common enough that it would be practical to make plans based upon anticipating such a pleasant surprise.

You have clever argumentative skills. I like that. I like when people seize on unimportant parts of an argument to make theirs, like assuming that because someone says you should shoot for a full ride you can properly ignore them if you're only offered 80% or 90% of tuition. I like your style.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby mvp99 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:15 pm

how are u not getting more from Columbia?

abl
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby abl » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:26 pm

Because you're interested in fed prosecution and because you seem to like Boston, HLS for $30,000 more is a reasonably easy choice IMO. Federal prosecution gigs are hard to get, and the doors that HLS will open are easily worth some relatively small additional COA. I know that $30,000 seems like a lot of money now, but in the scheme of your entire life, it's really not much more than a drop in the bucket.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby tlsapp2017 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:03 pm

I'd recommend visiting both schools to see which one you like better. I think either choice is ultimately justifiable - I ended up choosing Columbia with a similar amount of money (I didn't get Butler, but they gave me essentially the same amount of $$ through the regular aid process) over Harvard, but I wasn't going to get need aid from Harvard, so my situation was a little different (for several other reasons as well).

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby delusional » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:36 pm

In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Indifference » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:43 pm

delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.


Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated. Leaning towards H for personal reasons more than anything, but I'll wait to see what my final need based aid package looks like before I commit.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:06 pm

delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.


None of this comparison provided between the two schools is accurate. Harvard students certainly have grades and they do "stress out" about them. Both schools have a four grade scale. Students at Columbia aren't that stressed about jobs generally, except to the degree its in their nature as high achieving students. I don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" or "hit the jackpot" when the schools place very similarly. The median student at CLS and the median student at H are both likely to be at the same V20, and this applies throughout the grading scales. And I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean - 3L EIP and lateral options exist equally from both schools. None of this bizarre anecdata is substantiated.

That being said, if OP would rather live in Cambridge and they get a large need based grant, choosing H makes perfect sense.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:09 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.


None of this comparison provided between the two schools is accurate. Harvard students certainly have grades and they do "stress out" about them. Both schools have a four grade scale. Students at Columbia aren't that stressed about jobs generally, except to the degree its in their nature as high achieving students. I don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" or "hit the jackpot" when the schools place very similarly. And I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean - 3L EIP and lateral options exist equally from both schools. None of this bizarre anecdata is substantiated.

That being said, if OP would rather live in Cambridge and they get a large need based grant, choosing H makes perfect sense.

I agree with all of this, and would also add that when delusional applied several years ago it was a different world. For those who appropriately apply throughout the T-14, 3.9/177 assures you money in a way it didn't in 2011.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby Indifference » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:13 pm

Thanks bagel and splitter. I will be waiting in that need based aid, but I think all things equal H wins out for me. Just depends on how much I get. Also have to bear in mind need aid is recalculated annually whereas the Butler is set to be half tuition.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby kartelite » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:58 pm

To me, this seems to be a case where you should just pick based on whichever city you'd prefer to live in. Harvard has lower tuition, might give need-based aid, and you'll definitely have a lower COL. Since you'd rather live in Boston and have strong connections there, I'd say Harvard is an easy choice for you (and I took the Butler over HLS).

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby delusional » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:18 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.


None of this comparison provided between the two schools is accurate. Harvard students certainly have grades and they do "stress out" about them. Both schools have a four grade scale. Students at Columbia aren't that stressed about jobs generally, except to the degree its in their nature as high achieving students. I don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" or "hit the jackpot" when the schools place very similarly. The median student at CLS and the median student at H are both likely to be at the same V20, and this applies throughout the grading scales. And I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean - 3L EIP and lateral options exist equally from both schools. None of this bizarre anecdata is substantiated.

That being said, if OP would rather live in Cambridge and they get a large need based grant, choosing H makes perfect sense.
Sorry for providing anecdotes. As soon as my comprehensive study is completed I will update. Both schools have a four grade scale but Harvard's is incomprehensible by design and conventional wisdom on TLS is that it does, to a degree, shift focus away from grades both in stressing and at OCI. Also, Harvard does not rank while Columbia names Kent and Stone scholars before OCI, giving grade selective firms a handy screening tool. And it is equally untrue that 3L hiring is the same. Conventional wisdom agrees with my anecdotes about H opening up marginally more/ better opportunities. I am just calling attention to it based on my experiences.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:32 pm

delusional wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.


None of this comparison provided between the two schools is accurate. Harvard students certainly have grades and they do "stress out" about them. Both schools have a four grade scale. Students at Columbia aren't that stressed about jobs generally, except to the degree its in their nature as high achieving students. I don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" or "hit the jackpot" when the schools place very similarly. And I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean - 3L EIP and lateral options exist equally from both schools. None of this bizarre anecdata is substantiated.

That being said, if OP would rather live in Cambridge and they get a large need based grant, choosing H makes perfect sense.
Sorry for providing anecdotes. As soon as my comprehensive study is completed I will update. Both schools have a four grade scale but Harvard's is incomprehensible by design and conventional wisdom on TLS is that it does, to a degree, shift focus away from grades both in stressing and at OCI. Also, Harvard does not rank while Columbia names Kent and Stone scholars before OCI, giving grade selective firms a handy screening tool. And it is equally untrue that 3L hiring is the same. Conventional wisdom agrees with my anecdotes about H opening up marginally more/ better opportunities. I am just calling attention to it based on my experiences.


thank you for proving my point, snark aside. Over-reliance on the ambiguous "conventional wisdom" (and if that's all you're going on, not much more to say) you repeatedly cite to is what gets students into trouble in the first place. Sounds more like you're just saying a shorthand for the commercial us news survey. That's why we have placement data and record it meticulously. If you truly think sophisticated white collar industry employers can't decipher Harvard's grading scale ("incomprehensible by design"), you just aren't giving hiring departments and clerks enough credit. Of course they know it. The employers that care know exactly how many and combinations of P, H and DS the equivalent of a Stone scholar would be. It's not about "shifting focus": the reality is that at both schools, most employers won't be that concerned with grades, so you're right in the abstract but it applies universally.

And please explain, how is 3L hiring different? To be clear, I'm not arguing the schools provide equivalent outcomes. There are industries and certain positions where Harvard provides a non-negligible advantage. But you're making it sound like a different ballgame when realistically it's more like H gives you one more at-bat in the same nine innings.
Last edited by jbagelboy on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:34 pm

There are so many years of data and so many grads, I'm sure most big firms have figured out Harvard's scale by now.

Also, I don't think TLS' conventional wisdom is that Harvard kids don't stress. Yale kids on here stress. If anything TLS conventional wisdom is that Harvard students are insufferable and strivey.

I don't know much about Harvard other than TLS and the occasional grad I've met. But "stresses out less than other top school kids" is not an attribute I would label them with. If anything, it's the opposite from my experience.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby delusional » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:39 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
delusional wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
delusional wrote:In defense of OP, it happens that you don't get more money from other schools. I had similar numbers and didn't even get much from Columbia, because it's pretty much Butler/Hamilton or pennies that are supposedly "need based". Sometimes things don't break right - a couple yield protects or scholarship commitments that the school is waiting to hear back from, and your 3.9 177 turns into H at sticker or bust.

OP, I would recommend Harvard for a couple reasons. First, NY COL is sneaky expensive in ways that don't make it into the calculations. Second, if you want to end up in Boston, (and you do - lower COL, better work-life balance, and same pay scale as NY) moving twice is an expense and a personal drain. Third, no grades and fourth, relatedly, better employment opportunities. I had friends at Columbia who did much better than I did at Harvard who were much more stressed over grades and jobs. It's not that Columbia grads overall don't get jobs, obviously. It's that at Columbia you can fall through the cracks even with good grades and at Harvard you can hit the jackpot even without good grades and you have a much better chance of changing your mind halfway through 2L and still having a chance to switch firms, cities, or even careers.

None of this comparison provided between the two schools is accurate. Harvard students certainly have grades and they do "stress out" about them. Both schools have a four grade scale. Students at Columbia aren't that stressed about jobs generally, except to the degree its in their nature as high achieving students. I don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" or "hit the jackpot" when the schools place very similarly. And I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean - 3L EIP and lateral options exist equally from both schools. None of this bizarre anecdata is substantiated.

That being said, if OP would rather live in Cambridge and they get a large need based grant, choosing H makes perfect sense.
Sorry for providing anecdotes. As soon as my comprehensive study is completed I will update. Both schools have a four grade scale but Harvard's is incomprehensible by design and conventional wisdom on TLS is that it does, to a degree, shift focus away from grades both in stressing and at OCI. Also, Harvard does not rank while Columbia names Kent and Stone scholars before OCI, giving grade selective firms a handy screening tool. And it is equally untrue that 3L hiring is the same. Conventional wisdom agrees with my anecdotes about H opening up marginally more/ better opportunities. I am just calling attention to it based on my experiences.


thank you for proving my point, snark aside. Over-reliance on the ambiguous "conventional wisdom" (and if that's all you're going on, not much more to say) you repeatedly cite to is what gets students into trouble in the first place. Sounds more like you're just saying a shorthand for the commercial us news survey. That's why we have placement data and record it meticulously. If you truly think sophisticated white collar industry employers can't decipher Harvard's grading scale ("incomprehensible by design"), you just aren't giving hiring departments and clerks enough credit. Of course they know it. The employers that care know exactly how many and combinations of P, H and DS the equivalent of a Stone scholar would be. It's not about "shifting focus": the reality is that at both schools, most employers won't be that concerned with grades, so you're right in the abstract but it applies universally.

And please explain, how is 3L hiring different? To be clear, I'm not arguing the schools provide equivalent outcomes. There are industries and certain positions where Harvard provides a non-negligible advantage. But you're making it sound like a different ballgame when realistically it's more like H gives you one more at-bat in the same nine innings.
Snark aside, we are not very far apart. I'm just referring to the small difference and the way it plays out in practice.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby metroidbum » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:53 pm

.
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:59 pm

Dude you just quoted a post from him that said the exact opposite of that

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metroidbum
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby metroidbum » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:05 am

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:06 am

metroidbum wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:To be clear, I'm not arguing the schools provide equivalent outcomes. There are industries and certain positions where Harvard provides a non-negligible advantage. But you're making it sound like a different ballgame when realistically it's more like H gives you one more at-bat in the same nine innings.


Question for you jbagel,

it's TLS common wisdom that taking HLS at sticker over another T14 full ride is incredibly stupid, and that make sense to me.

My question to you is, if both Harvard and Columbia had a COA of zero (due to rich parents, a magic fairy, what have you) which is the better school? Because I get the sense from a lot of your posts that you think the two offer identical employment outcomes.


I'll just requote myself for simplicity.

If you have really rich parents and cost is no object, then HLS is a better choice. In fact, HLS may very well be the better choice for OP here.

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metroidbum
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby metroidbum » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:15 am

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Last edited by metroidbum on Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abl
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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby abl » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:10 pm

tlsapp2017 wrote:I'd recommend visiting both schools to see which one you like better. I think either choice is ultimately justifiable - I ended up choosing Columbia with a similar amount of money (I didn't get Butler, but they gave me essentially the same amount of $$ through the regular aid process) over Harvard, but I wasn't going to get need aid from Harvard, so my situation was a little different (for several other reasons as well).


Actually, I'd second this. I still think that as far as you can be objective about things like this, HLS is the objectively "better" choice. But the difference is easily close enough that you would not be making a mistake in choosing either option. So, if you like Columbia more, are really excited about living in NY, want to rock the whole anti-snob thing (at least as much as you can while attending another ivy league school), etc, go to Columbia. But if you are leaning towards Harvard anyway, or really feel like it's a coin flip, go to Harvard.

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Re: HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me).

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:13 pm

Columbia is anti-snob?

Huh




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