HLS v Columbia Butler (Don't kill me). Forum

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:52 pm

abl wrote:
tlsapp2017 wrote:I'd recommend visiting both schools to see which one you like better. I think either choice is ultimately justifiable - I ended up choosing Columbia with a similar amount of money (I didn't get Butler, but they gave me essentially the same amount of $$ through the regular aid process) over Harvard, but I wasn't going to get need aid from Harvard, so my situation was a little different (for several other reasons as well).
Actually, I'd second this. I still think that as far as you can be objective about things like this, HLS is the objectively "better" choice. But the difference is easily close enough that you would not be making a mistake in choosing either option. So, if you like Columbia more, are really excited about living in NY, want to rock the whole anti-snob thing (at least as much as you can while attending another ivy league school), etc, go to Columbia. But if you are leaning towards Harvard anyway, or really feel like it's a coin flip, go to Harvard.

how does one acquire so much condescension

rpupkin · Post by **rpupkin** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:44 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
abl wrote:
tlsapp2017 wrote:I'd recommend visiting both schools to see which one you like better. I think either choice is ultimately justifiable - I ended up choosing Columbia with a similar amount of money (I didn't get Butler, but they gave me essentially the same amount of $$ through the regular aid process) over Harvard, but I wasn't going to get need aid from Harvard, so my situation was a little different (for several other reasons as well).
Actually, I'd second this. I still think that as far as you can be objective about things like this, HLS is the objectively "better" choice. But the difference is easily close enough that you would not be making a mistake in choosing either option. So, if you like Columbia more, are really excited about living in NY, want to rock the whole anti-snob thing (at least as much as you can while attending another ivy league school), etc, go to Columbia. But if you are leaning towards Harvard anyway, or really feel like it's a coin flip, go to Harvard.
how does one acquire so much condescension

The easiest way is through attending HLS.

abl · Post by **abl** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:45 pm

BigZuck wrote:Columbia is anti-snob?

Huh

No. But there's some "I turned down Harvard" anti-snob cachet. It's stupid, but people make decisions on worse bases.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:46 pm

abl wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Columbia is anti-snob?

Huh
No. But there's some "I turned down Harvard" anti-snob cachet. It's stupid, but people make decisions on worse bases.

you have that same cachet except the antisnob part

abl · Post by **abl** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:02 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
abl wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Columbia is anti-snob?

Huh
No. But there's some "I turned down Harvard" anti-snob cachet. It's stupid, but people make decisions on worse bases.
you have that same cachet except the antisnob part

What?

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:04 pm

abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
abl wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Columbia is anti-snob?

Huh
No. But there's some "I turned down Harvard" anti-snob cachet. It's stupid, but people make decisions on worse bases.
you have that same cachet except the antisnob part
What?

You turned down harvard too. Why are you so condescending towards others who turn down HLS

abl · Post by **abl** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:25 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
You turned down harvard too. Why are you so condescending towards others who turn down HLS

To the extent that I was condescending, it was only about people who turn down Harvard for the sake of saying they turned down Harvard. I have no issues with anyone who turns down Harvard to save buckets of money at another great school like Columbia, or because she has a strong preference for a different city like NYC, or because she thought Yale/Stanford were better, etc. There are a lot of good reasons to turn down Harvard. There are also a lot of bad reasons to turn down Harvard.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:30 pm

abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
You turned down harvard too. Why are you so condescending towards others who turn down HLS
To the extent that I was condescending, it was only about people who turn down Harvard for the sake of saying they turned down Harvard. I have no issues with anyone who turns down Harvard to save buckets of money at another great school like Columbia, or because she has a strong preference for a different city like NYC, or because she thought Yale/Stanford were better, etc. There are a lot of good reasons to turn down Harvard. There are also a lot of bad reasons to turn down Harvard.

Okay fair. I doubt many people are turning down harvard for the "wrong" reasons though.

tlsapp2017 · Post by **tlsapp2017** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:50 pm

abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
You turned down harvard too. Why are you so condescending towards others who turn down HLS
To the extent that I was condescending, it was only about people who turn down Harvard for the sake of saying they turned down Harvard. I have no issues with anyone who turns down Harvard to save buckets of money at another great school like Columbia, or because she has a strong preference for a different city like NYC, or because she thought Yale/Stanford were better, etc. There are a lot of good reasons to turn down Harvard. There are also a lot of bad reasons to turn down Harvard.

Trust me, I didn't turn down Harvard for the sake of turning down Harvard. That's silly. I generally preferred NYC, I thought Harvard was too big, I really just liked the people I met at Columbia a lot more (obviously small sample size bias is involved here, but you make decisions based on the information you have), and obviously the $$ helped. And, ultimately, I determined that my career opportunities wouldn't be so radically different coming from either school.

suboxoneman · Post by **suboxoneman** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:11 pm

The OP should sit out a year and reapply in a more aggressive manner gunning for a full ride somewhere. Borrowing 200k+ when one doesn't even seem for sure that the will love being a lawyer seems like a questionable idea.

I think too often people view as Harvard or Stanford(and yes even Yale) acceptance as something that has great value and can't be given away. because they will have 'lost something'. This is a terrible way to look at it.

The reality is that most HYS grads, 10-15-20 years later, are just working the grind. Whether it's with an inhouse gig somewhere, a solid but not all that sexy govt/GS gig somewhere, or a mid size firm somewhere. When you are working these sorts of jobs money matters A TON(unless you have outside sources of income or family money). My wife works inhouse with a bunch of HYS grads, and the difference between owing tons of money(some of them) and her not owing anything(because she went to a t14 with $$$) is huge and will greatly impact your life.

Law students, in general, spend FAR TOO MUCH worrying about what will happen in transitioning to their very first job out of law school and not enough time worrying about a decades long career. They have these fears that if they don't have the exact same opportunities as a yale grad immediately coming out that they will always be behind them....even 10 and 15 years later. There may be a little truth to that for the yale grads who are special snowflakes(I mean the ones who have insane connections and actually do get a front office job for the nfl or a pro sports team or whatever), but that's not most yale students. Or the few who go on to be scotus clerks(what...2% of the class in a good year?) Far more yale students eventually cycle through the same type of jobs that the rest of the top 14 has access too(at least the non-bottom third), and to be honest once you exit biglaw far more of these grads actually work in an equal capacity to colleagues from non-t14s over time. My wifes legal dept has people from HYS, people from other t14s, and then plenty of people from the local state schools as well.....there isn't near the hierarchy law students think in the real world more than a few years out.

Indifference · Post by **Indifference** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:11 pm

Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?

rpupkin · Post by **rpupkin** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:39 pm

mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?

I believe that HLS could adjust your need-based grant downward if you make money during law school (e.g., in a summer associate position). Your Butler, by contrast, is guaranteed regardless of your financial situation.

Even with that concern in mind, I think that the COA for both schools is now close enough to make HLS the right choice. Congrats.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:56 pm

Post removed.

LoganCouture · Post by **LoganCouture** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:13 pm

mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/student ... er-income/

Your award will be reduced by the amount of your calculated "Student Contribution from Summer Income" which is calculated as 90% of your "Net Income."

Net Income = [Summer Gross Income (Max 12 Weeks] - [Taxes] - [Base Summer Living Allowance, $7400 in 2014]

Indifference · Post by **Indifference** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:29 pm

lc39 wrote:
mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/student ... er-income/

Your award will be reduced by the amount of your calculated "Student Contribution from Summer Income" which is calculated as 90% of your "Net Income."

Net Income = [Summer Gross Income (Max 12 Weeks] - [Taxes] - [Base Summer Living Allowance, $7400 in 2014]

Yep came across that doing research on HLS' PI programs. My plan is to pursue govt during summers as opposed to SAs. Those positions are generally unpaid and funded by the summer PI fund at HLS. In those cases my income would not reach the allowance threshold, let alone pass it.

Edit: phone/train spelling.

LoganCouture · Post by **LoganCouture** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:32 pm

mujiali wrote:
lc39 wrote:
mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/student ... er-income/

Your award will be reduced by the amount of your calculated "Student Contribution from Summer Income" which is calculated as 90% of your "Net Income."

Net Income = [Summer Gross Income (Max 12 Weeks] - [Taxes] - [Base Summer Living Allowance, $7400 in 2014]
Yep came across that doing research on HLS' PI programs. My plan is to pursue govt during summers as opposed to SAs. Those positions are generally unpaid and funded by the summer PI fund at HLS. In those cases my income would not reach the allowance threshold, let alone pass it.

Edit: phone/train spelling.

Cool! Just wanted to let you know. Since that's the case your award should actually increase year over year (because of tuition increases). Maybe the base loan amount will be adjusted annually as well. Enjoy H!

RSN · Post by **RSN** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:13 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?
Anecdotally, in my experience, it does appear grants remain consistent if there was no significant change in someone's finances. I'd assume Harvard's financial aid office is similar to our own. If you make money as a summer associate, they will lower your grant as a reflection.

Yes, near the same COA, without some major extenuating circumstances (like that girl on here who'd be living in NYC and commuting every day) or maybe a complete hatred of Cambridge (you'd be the first), then Harvard absolutely decimates Columbia. I agree that median students will probably have the same outcome, though you'd be stuck at a V20 in NYC at Columbia and might have a few more areas to choose from at Harvard. But not even our most devout Columbia homers on here will argue that Harvard doesn't provide a few more opportunities at the fringes. They're both great choices, but out of your current options, Harvard is a very clear winner.

This doesn't make sense

yomisterd · Post by **yomisterd** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:16 pm

why is this same debate rehashed in at least one front page thread every single day.

people need to stop using this as a personal soapbox and either give op good advice or get the fuck out. op is not dumb and can figure out LST and ABA reports him/her/they/itself.

god damn.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:23 pm

Post removed.

rpupkin · Post by **rpupkin** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:32 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:I think it's pretty clear. At median they are very similar for biglaw, but at the top of the class and at the bottom of the class, Harvard gives more opportunities. Combine that with the far greater placement in all other legal areas, Harvard crushes Columbia at same COA.

Interesting. My take is that the top of the class at HLS and CLS have similar opportunities. It's actually at median that HLS helps a bit, though not in relation to NYC big law, where I agree that the two schools place similarly.

For law firms outside of NYC, I'd definitely rather be median at HLS than median at CLS. Same deal for clerkships. I think it's easier for a median HLS student to get bites from judges.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:26 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
mujiali wrote:Sorry to bump a dead thread, but H need aid info just came back, and they offered the same as CLS for a year (30k). Since my family finances are unlikely to improve during law school, is it safe to assume the grant will remain roughly constant?

Also, at the same COA, does HLS beat out CLS?
Anecdotally, in my experience, it does appear grants remain consistent if there was no significant change in someone's finances. I'd assume Harvard's financial aid office is similar to our own. If you make money as a summer associate, they will lower your grant as a reflection.

Yes, near the same COA, without some major extenuating circumstances (like that girl on here who'd be living in NYC and commuting every day) or maybe a complete hatred of Cambridge (you'd be the first), then Harvard absolutely decimates Columbia. I agree that median students will probably have the same outcome, though you'd be stuck at a V20 in NYC at Columbia and might have a few more areas to choose from at Harvard. But not even our most devout Columbia homers on here will argue that Harvard doesn't provide a few more opportunities at the fringes. They're both great choices, but out of your current options, Harvard is a very clear winner.

Yes, Harvard provides more opportunities at the fringes. In no way does it "absolutely decimate" CLS. More like, it has mild advantages.

Indifference · Post by **Indifference** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:39 pm

yomisterd wrote:why is this same debate rehashed in at least one front page thread every single day.

people need to stop using this as a personal soapbox and either give op good advice or get the fuck out. op is not dumb and can figure out LST and ABA reports him/her/they/itself.

god damn.

(Himself). Sorry to open a can of worms here.

CicerBRo · Post by **CicerBRo** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:57 pm

yomisterd · Post by **yomisterd** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:59 pm

mujiali wrote:
yomisterd wrote:why is this same debate rehashed in at least one front page thread every single day.

people need to stop using this as a personal soapbox and either give op good advice or get the fuck out. op is not dumb and can figure out LST and ABA reports him/her/they/itself.

god damn.
(Himself). Sorry to open a can of worms here.

op i don't blame you. you had a valid concern with some unique circumstances. did you have to ask the tls hive mind? not necessarily. but you can't help seeking advice from people who might have been in similar situations.

i blame the fucktards who either want to trash hls or justify their turning down money to come to harvard by making it seem like fucking mecca or yale or something.

listen op, i think you make a pro con list. the way this list works out is that you have major debt either way you go. $25k difference between 175 and 200k is a 1L SA. not to trivialize debt but point is you are gonna be in the red regardless. in a not so small way. so that is con on both sides. pro on both sides is good big law. who cares about a fucking percentage point or whatever you will likely get big law both places. so you have pro and con for both. now think about career. it sounds like you are unsure, so having most options available is good. harvard is big with lots of options. columbia also has great options. it could be a wash, or you could say harvard being bigger is a plus. now with family and SO (which i personally think is a big deal if you like the SO but who am i to know) that seems pro harvard. harvard also has low income protection plan that is pretty good and could help you out if you want to take a low income job and not biglawl after school. maybe another plus? columbia probably has something similar too but i fucking hated their financial aid process so take with a mine of salt. seems like more pros on harvard side.

i am probably biased in favor of harvard because that is where i am. i don't regret my choice because i too was looking at pretty much a financial wash between h and elsewhere. i like it. maybe you will. that's my shpeal and everyone STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT RANKINGS AND JOB PLACEMENT AND OTHER BORING SHIT.

RSN · Post by **RSN** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:21 pm

yomisterd wrote:
mujiali wrote:
yomisterd wrote:why is this same debate rehashed in at least one front page thread every single day.

people need to stop using this as a personal soapbox and either give op good advice or get the fuck out. op is not dumb and can figure out LST and ABA reports him/her/they/itself.

god damn.
(Himself). Sorry to open a can of worms here.
op i don't blame you. you had a valid concern with some unique circumstances. did you have to ask the tls hive mind? not necessarily. but you can't help seeking advice from people who might have been in similar situations.

i blame the fucktards who either want to trash hls or justify their turning down money to come to harvard by making it seem like fucking mecca or yale or something.

listen op, i think you make a pro con list. the way this list works out is that you have major debt either way you go. $25k difference between 175 and 200k is a 1L SA. not to trivialize debt but point is you are gonna be in the red regardless. in a not so small way. so that is con on both sides. pro on both sides is good big law. who cares about a fucking percentage point or whatever you will likely get big law both places. so you have pro and con for both. now think about career. it sounds like you are unsure, so having most options available is good. harvard is big with lots of options. columbia also has great options. it could be a wash, or you could say harvard being bigger is a plus. now with family and SO (which i personally think is a big deal if you like the SO but who am i to know) that seems pro harvard. harvard also has low income protection plan that is pretty good and could help you out if you want to take a low income job and not biglawl after school. maybe another plus? columbia probably has something similar too but i fucking hated their financial aid process so take with a mine of salt. seems like more pros on harvard side.

i am probably biased in favor of harvard because that is where i am. i don't regret my choice because i too was looking at pretty much a financial wash between h and elsewhere. i like it. maybe you will. that's my shpeal and everyone STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT RANKINGS AND JOB PLACEMENT AND OTHER BORING SHIT.

u mad bro