another stupid ranking debuts

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03152016
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

another stupid ranking debuts

Postby 03152016 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:08 am

another day, another idiotic ranking
this one is based on reported salary and indebtedness data
where do you even begin

reported salary is notorious flame
there's a reason fordham and harvard have the same $160k median reported salary, and it has nothing to do with similar placement power
95% of students at H reported a salary. only 65% at fordham did.
until salary data is more complete/reliable, it has no business being in a "ranking"

average indebtedness data is another stupid measurement for a ranking
few people are going to take out the mean amount. some people will debt-finance sticker, others will get full rides or go to bank of mommy
so weighing a hypothetical average student's indebtedness against reported salary is meaningless for most prospective students
it invites confusion. at least one person with a full-ride to a "C" school will opt for a sticker "B" based on the supposedly superior financial prospects, even though a weighing of that person's individual indebtedness against median salary would show the exact opposite result
that's simply a reality about how people use rankings. higher ranked schools are better. must be worth more of my loan money. few prospective students will carefully study the methodology and recreate the rankings based on their own projected indebtedness.

anyways, without further adieu, here they are:

M7 Financial is pleased to present a first-of-its-kind financial rating of the nation’s top law schools. We based our ratings on the ability of an average student at each school to pay typical program-related student loan obligations upon graduation.


A Tier:
S
Y
H

A- Tier:
BYU
UT
BC
UCLA
UMich
GW
Duke
Penn
UVA
Boalt
CLS
NYU
Chi

B+ Tier:
BU
UNC
Vandy
Fordham
GULC
UA
USC
Notre Dame
Minn
NU
WUSTL
UofA
UIUC
W&M
UW
ASU
IU
Wisconsin
Emory
OSU
UC Davis
FSU
UGA
Iowa
Tulane

C Tier:
SMU
CU
WF
W&L
GMU
Pepperdine

Unranked (insufficient info)
Cornell

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UnicornHunter
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby UnicornHunter » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:23 am

given that YSHCCN all have similar placement power into big law, and thus should all have median salaries of $160K, it's interesting that this poll has YSH in a tier of their own. It either means a: the need based grants YSHCCN amount to more aid across the student body as a whole than the merit based schollies that CCN give or that they didn't stick to their own guns.

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lacrossebrother
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:25 am

Nice link not

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby 03152016 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:37 am

yeah average indebtedness is lower at hys, which sort of makes sense, since the money is more likely to be directed at those who would have to fully debt-finance
but that still leaves a problem: UT shows $160k median, but average indebtedness is lower than all of HYS. it has a lower leverage ratio and a higher coverage ratio
so if they were really just doing what they describe, why wouldn't it be TYSH (zuck is in ecstasy)

this didn't add up, so i went down a little further and discovered that, despite the fact they said "We based our ratings on the ability of an average student at each school to pay typical program-related student loan obligations upon graduation", page 12 reveals the "credit ranking" also "reflects" "employment prospects" and "reputation".
ah, so there it is. have to respect the established pecking order of schools or you lose credibility. so despite inventing this "clever" new methodology, they end up factoring in the same reputational fluff other rankings use that inevitably keeps them all looking roughly the same

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby 03152016 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:42 am

lacrossebrother wrote:Nice link not

there is no link
you get the rankings by subscribing to an e-mail list
but they don't disclose how they use your e-mail address, if they sell it, how frequently you get their spam, whether you can unsubscribe, etc
i have a problem with that. others can post the link but i'm not going to

it's easy enough to find if you're interested enough tho

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lacrossebrother
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:48 am

You have an ethical problem with a list you signed up for because they don't tell you how they would use your email address that you gave them, so you just rip off their copyright without at least the nominal gesture of a link? Or alternatively don't allow readers here to just easily check out the source? How about don't post anymore till you stop being dumb thanks

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby 03152016 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:52 am

lol yea, serious copyright violation here
why do you insist on pretending you know things dude, you're not fooling anyone

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lacrossebrother
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby lacrossebrother » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:59 am

You should post links to stuff

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:13 am

Well, that just happened

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: another stupid ranking debuts

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:53 am

These rankings are all kinds of screwy. I think what would be helpful ultimately is figuring out A. what students want going into law school, B. did they get that with their particular J.D. brand, and C. how much are they in debt afterwards.

Did the 'Employment Prospects' take into account that different people want different things? Rankings based on job outcomes that assume BigLaw or Fed Clerkships are the only answer isn't helpful for the person who wants to practice in a smaller market. It's understandable to use this as a shorthand for 'employment success' given bad data; debt outcomes are generally so bad otherwise that to pay sticker to go to GW or GULC for solo practice or something less than a big firm is just ludicrous.

Of course, asking what students want assumes they know what they want. 0L's are not to be trusted with their own future - after all, they're applying to/going to law school, for god's sake.




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