UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
allentx
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby allentx » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:20 pm

I went to UT undergrad and really want to practice in Texas. I am extremely debt averse as I am paying for law school myself. So far my offers are:

UT 5k/year (so I would pay 28k/year)
Emory 43k/year (owe 5/year)
WashU full ride
Still waiting on offer from Vandy

I was a little surprised to see UT's offer being that low but I have heard that UT makes low offers to in-state students in hopes that we won't negotiate. I definitely plan on negotiating in the coming weeks. At what point, financially, should I say UT is worth paying for?
Last edited by allentx on Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:24 pm

What do you want to do?

allentx
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby allentx » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:27 pm

Winston1984 wrote:What do you want to do?


I want more money. How much I need to make me attend UT is still tbd

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:09 pm

allentx wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:What do you want to do?


I want more money. How much I need to make me attend UT is still tbd

I don't know what this means. Do you want to work in biglaw? Or a small firm/local government?

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:12 pm

Also, it would be more helpful for you to post total cost of attendance (including tuition increases, cost of living, loan origination fees, etc.) LST has some good financial worksheets on their website if you haven't seen them.

BigZuck
Posts: 10859
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:28 pm

I go to UT. That's way too much to pay IMO. And they really low balled you for some reason. Do you have a scholarship offer from Cornell yet? Maybe that will nudge them along. I'd also retake in June for negotiation purposes.

If your aspirations are modest (and they should be with this range of schools) and UT won't budge, maybe SMU or UH on a full ride would be your best bet.

But this is really baffling to me, they should have offered more money. Two cycles ago I was basically the same numbers and offered 15k a year (eventually negotiated up to 20K).

User avatar
lawschool1741
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:32 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby lawschool1741 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:48 pm

That's a super low-ball offer from UT. I'd expect you to be able to negotiate a substantial increase.

BTW- what do you mean they low-ball in-state students in hopes they don't negotiate? Wouldn't that cause an increase in negotiation?

allentx
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby allentx » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:57 pm

@winston, sorry I misunderstood your first question. I am not dead set on big law. I obviously would like to do well in school and get a job paying six figures, in Texas.

I am still waiting to hear back from Cornell. I applied late January (only for negotiation purposes). I screwed myself over not applying to higher ranked schools but I didn't think UT was going to low ball me so hard. I'm thinking if I can get up to about 20k/year it would be worth staying here.

In regards to UT offering in-state lower offers, my LSAT tutor (who deals with hundreds of UT undergrads each year) said that many students don't realize they can negotiate. They are set on going to UT, and the price isn't a huge factor so they immediately accept the offer.

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:00 pm

allentx wrote:@winston, sorry I misunderstood your first question. I am not dead set on big law. I obviously would like to do well in school and get a job paying six figures, in Texas.

I am still waiting to hear back from Cornell. I applied late January (only for negotiation purposes). I screwed myself over not applying to higher ranked schools but I didn't think UT was going to low ball me so hard. I'm thinking if I can get up to about 20k/year it would be worth staying here.

In regards to UT offering in-state lower offers, my LSAT tutor (who deals with hundreds of UT undergrads each year) said that many students don't realize they can negotiate. They are set on going to UT, and the price isn't a huge factor so they immediately accept the offer.

Based on your goals. UT or Vandy seem to be like the only options (UT obviously the better one). I wouldn't pay more than $100k for either though. Probably more like $80k to be safe.

allentx
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby allentx » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:04 pm

I also have offers of 25k/year to Alabama (tuition is 35) and 40k/year to USC (tuition is 55) if either of those hold any negotiation value

BigZuck
Posts: 10859
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:07 pm

allentx wrote:I also have offers of 25k/year to Alabama (tuition is 35) and 40k/year to USC (tuition is 55) if either of those hold any negotiation value

I've talked about this a few times and grain of salt I guess but I had 30K a year at Duke/Cornell and that got UT to go from 15K a year to 18K a year

User avatar
lawschool1741
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:32 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby lawschool1741 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:20 pm

allentx wrote:In regards to UT offering in-state lower offers, my LSAT tutor (who deals with hundreds of UT undergrads each year) said that many students don't realize they can negotiate. They are set on going to UT, and the price isn't a huge factor so they immediately accept the offer.

Ah hadn't heard that before, but makes sense

User avatar
zombie mcavoy
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:11 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby zombie mcavoy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:39 pm

I know a guy who's at like 14 a year from negotiating a near-fully at WUSTL. At worst they're going to double you. But you're gonna want to play hardball.

For a native Texan who wants to be in Texas for their whole career, I get the feeling UT is kind of undervalued on TLS (but I think it's valued properly for OOSers). If you can get the full debt load to around or less than 100K (I don't think that should be a problem here), I wouldn't have any problem saying to pull the trigger.

User avatar
Attax
Posts: 3589
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:59 am

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Attax » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:58 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:I know a guy who's at like 14 a year from negotiating a near-fully at WUSTL. At worst they're going to double you. But you're gonna want to play hardball.

For a native Texan who wants to be in Texas for their whole career, I get the feeling UT is kind of undervalued on TLS (but I think it's valued properly for OOSers). If you can get the full debt load to around or less than 100K (I don't think that should be a problem here), I wouldn't have any problem saying to pull the trigger.


ZM seems to be on track here. I'd agree, being in Texas and from Texas seems to be a bit of a plus. That being said, grades are still going to matter. Although, they'll matter less than anywhere else if you do want to be here long run (out of your options at least). I'd get them to bump up, and if they don't, I'd take a fully.

User avatar
reasonable person
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby reasonable person » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:35 am

Congrats on your acceptances and scholarships.

Before I say anything substantive realize that I or anyone else posting on this board or others comes from anonymous internet posters, my post included and when making a life altering decision such as where to attend law school anonymous internet advice should be low on the relevance scale.

With that intro I think any incoming law student should consider the following five factors in this order when choosing a law school (1) Location; (2) Cost; (3) Personal Feelings about the school; (4) The reality of legal education; and (5) last and least U.S. News rankings. Here is a good article analyzing these factors. http://www.legalmatch.com/choose-the-ri ... chool.html

Two main things that stick out in your post is that I think you are taking the rankings to seriously and you have listed what the scholarship conditions are, which is very important.

U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion. U.S. News is certainly entitled to provide it's opinions, but for all intents and purposes it is entertainment and should not be a large factor on where you attend law school. U.S. News ranked Albuquerque, New Mexico #1 best place to live. http://www.bestplaces.net/city/new_mexico/albuquerque . Will you move to New Mexico, because U.S. News said it is the #1 best place to live? I assume moving to a new city based on what a magazine says seems a bit crazy, but for some reason incoming law students myself included make three year $100,000+ commitments and move to new cities to attend law school often based on what this magazine says, which is not a smart decision.

As for your scholarships what are the CONDITIONS many law schools require that you maintain a 3.0 GPA, which to an incoming law student seems like a piece of cake, but it is not. All law students are smart, hard-working, motivated and 100% really believe they will finish in the top 10%, but you don't need to be a math major to see how that works out. The 3.0 requirement is also unlike undergrad, because law school has a steep curve and typically only 35% of students can get a 3.0 first year. This means there is a 65% chance you will lose your scholarship if that is the scenario. I don't know what the conditions of your scholarships are, but ASK. This New York Times Article explains the situation better than I can. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/busin ... wanted=all

You have a lot of good options, but I strongly encourage you to visit each school, learn the scholarship conditions, and put the U.S. News magazine down if after all the other factors are considered and you can't make a decision use it as a tie-breaker, but a magazine should not be a major basis for a 3 year, $100,000+, life and career altering decision.

Good luck and congrats on your acceptances.

User avatar
lawschool1741
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:32 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby lawschool1741 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:18 am

My thought on this is that the rankings (for the most part) correlate directly with job prospects - which, at least for me, is a very important factor in the decision making process. This is related to your mentioning of location (ties, etc) & difficulty of grades (therefore class ranking), which then further influence job opportunities. So I agree in that you should not base the decision on the rankings per se, rather the respective underlying numbers that are important to you (big law rate, clerkship rate, having a job rate, etc).

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:21 am

lawschool1741 wrote:My thought on this is that the rankings (for the most part) correlate directly with job prospects - which, at least for me, is a very important factor in the decision making process. This is related to your mentioning of location (ties, etc) & difficulty of grades (therefore class ranking), which then further influence job opportunities. So I agree in that you should not base the decision on the rankings per se, rather the respective underlying numbers that are important to you (big law rate, clerkship rate, having a job rate, etc).

No.

User avatar
lawschool1741
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:32 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby lawschool1741 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:08 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
lawschool1741 wrote:My thought on this is that the rankings (for the most part) correlate directly with job prospects - which, at least for me, is a very important factor in the decision making process. This is related to your mentioning of location (ties, etc) & difficulty of grades (therefore class ranking), which then further influence job opportunities. So I agree in that you should not base the decision on the rankings per se, rather the respective underlying numbers that are important to you (big law rate, clerkship rate, having a job rate, etc).

No.

Just checked LST and you are definitely more correct overall than my generalized statement (the Top 14 is nearly intact, though in substantially different order, and after that it is quite variant). So, go more off of these 'rankings' than the US News rankings. I still think Reasonable Person's order of important choice factors doesn't account substantially for employment prospects - return on investment should be accounted for with any decision.

ETA: the rest of his/her arguments are great and definitely need to be considered more often than they seem to be

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:34 pm

lawschool1741 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
lawschool1741 wrote:My thought on this is that the rankings (for the most part) correlate directly with job prospects - which, at least for me, is a very important factor in the decision making process. This is related to your mentioning of location (ties, etc) & difficulty of grades (therefore class ranking), which then further influence job opportunities. So I agree in that you should not base the decision on the rankings per se, rather the respective underlying numbers that are important to you (big law rate, clerkship rate, having a job rate, etc).

No.

Just checked LST and you are definitely more correct overall than my generalized statement (the Top 14 is nearly intact, though in substantially different order, and after that it is quite variant). So, go more off of these 'rankings' than the US News rankings. I still think Reasonable Person's order of important choice factors doesn't account substantially for employment prospects - return on investment should be accounted for with any decision.

ETA: the rest of his/her arguments are great and definitely need to be considered more often than they seem to be

Right. I would say the next few outside the T-14 (Vandy, UT, UCLA, etc) are stronger than most other schools. After that, it fluctuates a lot.

allentx
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: UT vs. Vandy/Emory/WashU

Postby allentx » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:37 pm

I don't think any of my scholarships have any GPA stipulations. The only one that does is Bama (which I'm not even considering).




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lymenheimer, Socratease, SolRs, Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests