Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:36 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:just make sure you are absolutely confident you won't be below average and you'll have a good shot.

How in the hell do you propose op does this, exactly?

Oh ok is this the key to doing well in law school? Crazy how no one had thought of this before.


First of all, 300K debt is stupid. If you go to law school and get into 300K debt, then you are stupid. I will be at about 90K post-grad, which, with a law firm job lined up, means it is very manageable.

Despite previous posters smart-assery, you CAN actually educate yourself about your abilities and chances. Here are some questions you should be asking yourself:

Q1: Do you have any legal experience?

Q2: Did you do well on the LSAT? (In and of itself it's a BS test, but it shows you can jump through BS hoops - welcome to law school!)

Q3: Did you do well in undergrad? If you can figure out what professors want and tailor exam answers to their expectations, you will do better than if you just go in and write

Q4: Do you have a study methodology researched and planned? I looked into how to 'study smart' that works with my learning style - most of it is no brainer stuff: do the reading, take notes on paper, no laptop in class, make my own outline from scratch, etc.

Q5: Have you researched and do you understand the geographic and practice areas you may want to enter?

Law school is a cost/benefit risk assessment - if you don't gauge your abilities and likelihood of success relative to the cost of going and potentially not making it, then you're not cut out to be a professional or, quite frankly, a functional adult. You can't know 'for sure' that you'll be above or below average, but there is a LOT of research you can do to figure out rough approximations. I waited 5+ years from undergrad until I was sure I was ready for law school, the hiring market would be there, and that I could handle the workload, understand the material, and be a prime candidate for legal employment thereafter.

For various reasons, I'm tied to DC - so that meant Georgetown and BigLaw in DC. I did as much research as possible, weighed the pros and cons, and decided that I could make it. My advice is that doing no less, you will statistically be fine even if you pay full sticker. If you flail around blindly and assume that you could never know anything about your chances/abilities, then nothing short of HYS and well-connected parents will save you.


According to this link, tuition at GULC is $53,000 a year. Care to explain how in the name of Marry's milkbags you can attend GULC AT STICKER and graduate with 90K of debt? Hint: if family money has anything to do with the answer, kill yourself.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:42 pm

bjsesq wrote:That was a whole lot of text to essentially say jack shit. Thanks, Zach.


Who hurt you to make you this way, bjsesq? Point to me on the doll where the bad Law School Career Office touched you.

OP: plenty of disenchanted trolls believe that you can never do any kind of due diligence beforehand, or improve during law school, or manage your finances before or during school so that you incur less than $300K debt.

Believe what you want to believe: that law school and law firm hiring is a meaningless, entirely arbitrary crapshoot devoid of rationale or logic, or that, like anything else in the world, it is a series of risk/benefit assessments. You may not have all the information, but you can do due diligence sufficient to figure out how to be a good law student and to get a really good shot at success. It's not a guarantee, but nothing is. I managed to get top 5% at GULC, and full of hubris that I am, it wasn't due to any inherent intelligence, luck, or capability on my part. It's because I worked my ass off beforehand to figure out what I was getting into, and worked my ass off during school to be the best I could possibly be.

Work no less harder than your best, and you will be fine.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:44 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:According to this link, tuition at GULC is $53,000 a year. Care to explain how in the name of Marry's milkbags you can attend GULC AT STICKER and graduate with 90K of debt? Hint: if family money has anything to do with the answer, kill yourself.



I have no help from my family. I work two jobs and saved up considerably beforehand for years. I get 22.5K in loans per year for 4 years, and try to pay off interest as I go along.

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bjsesq
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby bjsesq » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Anecdotal evidence about me that can be generalized to you, friend! I can law school, and so can you.

It's one thing to tell another student already in school they can improve if they do x, y and z. It's another thing entirely to tell a 0L they should go to Georgetown at sticker because they'll do well as long as they study hard and only end up with 90k in debt so long as they "manage their finances." Are you retarded?

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rpupkin
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby rpupkin » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:49 pm

zacharus85 wrote:Work no less harder than your best, and you will be fine.

THIS.

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bjsesq
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby bjsesq » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:50 pm

rpupkin wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Work no less harder than your best, and you will be fine.

THIS.

Is fucking dumb.

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rpupkin
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby rpupkin » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:53 pm

bjsesq wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Work no less harder than your best, and you will be fine.

THIS.

Is fucking dumb.

You're just bitter because you worked less harder than your best.

The real key is to work more harder than your best. You will dominate.

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bjsesq
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby bjsesq » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:54 pm

rpupkin wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Work no less harder than your best, and you will be fine.

THIS.

Is fucking dumb.

You're just bitter because you worked less harder than your best.

The real key is to work more harder than your best. You will dominate.

I think if we'd both worked the most harder than our best, perhaps we wouldn't be here.

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chuckbass
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby chuckbass » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:56 pm

This thread really delivered.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:05 pm

Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.

thebobs1987
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby thebobs1987 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:08 pm

zacharus85 wrote:Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.


I am calling troll

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bjsesq
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby bjsesq » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:08 pm

zacharus85 wrote:Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.

That's great once you're in law school. It's fucking atrocious advice when you tell someone to take Georgetown at sticker.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:09 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:According to this link, tuition at GULC is $53,000 a year. Care to explain how in the name of Marry's milkbags you can attend GULC AT STICKER and graduate with 90K of debt? Hint: if family money has anything to do with the answer, kill yourself.



I have no help from my family. I work two jobs and saved up considerably beforehand for years. I get 22.5K in loans per year for 4 years, and try to pay off interest as I go along.



Ok, so you a: had professional experience before law school and b: attend GULC part-time while working. You see how your story doesn't apply to OP's question, right? Don't get me wrong- props to you, I think your approach to law school is a good one. HOWEVER, it has absolutely dick to do with OP who isn't looking to develop a long term plan, but is asking a specific question about attending next year.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:38 pm

thebobs1987 wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.


I am calling troll


.
Last edited by Capitol_Idea on Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby LetsGoMets » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:46 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
thebobs1987 wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.


I am calling troll


Georgetown 3E - Zach Hutchinson. You want my SSN, 2 forms of photo ID, and shoe size as well?


Bro giving your real name out as a show of legitimacy makes you even more of a troll

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:51 pm

This is getting wildly off topic and shouldn't be about me, but about OP. Before getting TOO derailed, let's clarify:

SpanishMain said: Sticker at GULC is ALWAYS bad. For that to be correct, the majority of people attending Georgetown would have to not end up in jobs where you could pay that off and end up with a salary/lifestyle long-term (read: 10+ years down the road) commensurate with other professional paths. That is plainly false - a solid majority get Biglaw, even at GULC (exact numbers vary, but it is comfortably well over 50%).

I don't think sticker at GULC is always smart (behold, trolls! a middle road!) - my point is that it depends, and largely on the quality of student. My path is different than most, that is a fair point, BUT it's endemic of the LARGER point I'm trying to make: sticker at GULC (or anywhere top20-ish, maybe?) is doable if you have a plan. That's all I've been trying to say!

All you trolls: put your money where your mouth is and put YOUR story out there. I'm pretty sure SpanishMain is a GULC student (sorry if that's not true, SM - I don't troll here often enough to get everybody's backstory down cold), but the rest of you? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Can my story analogize to everybody else? No. But neither can yours! So all of you have read a couple months worth of Above the Law and think it's 'cool' to hate on law school - congratulations for offering precisely zero value to OP!

Let's assume, however, that OP is coming right out of college, no work experience, no family help, no savings, etc. Those are qualifiers I never put on my statements, btw, and I don't think OP put all that out there either. But even then, I'll still say that GULC at sticker isn't NECESSARILY a bad move. It all comes down to strategizing - law school is not a complete crapshoot except for the idiots who do no research or planning. I, like an adult, planned the hell out of my life and made the most informed judgment I could. The VAST majority of my colleagues fared similarly well - the only ones I know at GULC who failed at EIW were ones who had no plan going into law school. They just did it because 'law school seemed like the thing to do.'

As I have said earlier, if you are an idiot, sticker at ANYWHERE is a bad choice. If you are prepared to accept the risks and commit to law school beforehand.

If law school didn't work out for you, Hell, if GULC or better didn't work out for you, the market/school may in some way factor in there. But for the vast majority of law school failures, the blame is squarely on you. You didn't do the research, didn't gauge your abilities, didn't put the work in, etc. It's not a luck-of-the-draw system and A's don't get handed out randomly. You earn that shit, son.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:54 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:
thebobs1987 wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Why, precisely, is it dumb? I've put my story out there and the strategy I used to get there. There's no magic formula - work hard and actually try to learn something. Worked for me.


I am calling troll


Georgetown 3E - Zach Hutchinson. You want my SSN, 2 forms of photo ID, and shoe size as well?


Bro giving your real name out as a show of legitimacy makes you even more of a troll


Bro taking advice from anonymous cowards on how to be 'legit' is naive, maybe, but not trolling. I have nothing to hide and no reason to obfuscate. I'm not QUITE toolish/self-centered enough to put my resume/transcript up for all to see, but if anyone REALLY cares enough about me and my legitimacy (and they shouldn't), I'd be happy to do so via PM. But that would really be silly for all parties.

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Winston1984
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Winston1984 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:56 pm

zacharus85 wrote:This is getting wildly off topic and shouldn't be about me, but about OP. Before getting TOO derailed, let's clarify:

SpanishMain said: Sticker at GULC is ALWAYS bad. For that to be correct, the majority of people attending Georgetown would have to not end up in jobs where you could pay that off and end up with a salary/lifestyle long-term (read: 10+ years down the road) commensurate with other professional paths. That is plainly false - a solid majority get Biglaw, even at GULC (exact numbers vary, but it is comfortably well over 50%).

I don't think sticker at GULC is always smart (behold, trolls! a middle road!) - my point is that it depends, and largely on the quality of student. My path is different than most, that is a fair point, BUT it's endemic of the LARGER point I'm trying to make: sticker at GULC (or anywhere top20-ish, maybe?) is doable if you have a plan. That's all I've been trying to say!

All you trolls: put your money where your mouth is and put YOUR story out there. I'm pretty sure SpanishMain is a GULC student (sorry if that's not true, SM - I don't troll here often enough to get everybody's backstory down cold), but the rest of you? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Can my story analogize to everybody else? No. But neither can yours! So all of you have read a couple months worth of Above the Law and think it's 'cool' to hate on law school - congratulations for offering precisely zero value to OP!

Let's assume, however, that OP is coming right out of college, no work experience, no family help, no savings, etc. Those are qualifiers I never put on my statements, btw, and I don't think OP put all that out there either. But even then, I'll still say that GULC at sticker isn't NECESSARILY a bad move. It all comes down to strategizing - law school is not a complete crapshoot except for the idiots who do no research or planning. I, like an adult, planned the hell out of my life and made the most informed judgment I could. The VAST majority of my colleagues fared similarly well - the only ones I know at GULC who failed at EIW were ones who had no plan going into law school. They just did it because 'law school seemed like the thing to do.'

As I have said earlier, if you are an idiot, sticker at ANYWHERE is a bad choice. If you are prepared to accept the risks and commit to law school beforehand.

If law school didn't work out for you, Hell, if GULC or better didn't work out for you, the market/school may in some way factor in there. But for the vast majority of law school failures, the blame is squarely on you. You didn't do the research, didn't gauge your abilities, didn't put the work in, etc. It's not a luck-of-the-draw system and A's don't get handed out randomly. You earn that shit, son.

This is just wrong
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2013/
It's not even at 50%. Hasn't been for the last 3 years either.

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Hand
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Hand » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:02 pm

Zach my friend, a dude who has been working as a consultant during the day for 8 years with a solid enough savings account to come out with 90K in debt who tells some poor soul who will probably go straight from undergrad that going at sticker is fine, which in the latter guy's case would amount to coming out with 250-300K in debt, is a troll, whether you throw out your real name here or not.
Last edited by Hand on Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:02 pm

This is the sad part about it all - everyone thinks it's so cool to be jaded that they don't critically think about things - they go with whatever ATL and TLS seems to be spouting. So much so that someone who espouses a view that maybe, just maybe, you CAN do well at law school if you work hard and are smart about things, is necessarily a troll.

Nothing I've said is meant to be inflammatory or sow discord - I was actually just trying to give a different perspective for OP. Everyone thereafter who immediately a. called me an idiot, and b. without any supporting rationale - are your trolls.

The comments are hilarious, though.

Not feeding the flames anymore. OP: you want to talk to a real GULC student who can share my experiences and research, PM me. Later kiddos, it's been real!

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LetsGoMets
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby LetsGoMets » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:02 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:
thebobs1987 wrote:
I am calling troll


Georgetown 3E - Zach Hutchinson. You want my SSN, 2 forms of photo ID, and shoe size as well?


Bro giving your real name out as a show of legitimacy makes you even more of a troll


Bro taking advice from anonymous cowards on how to be 'legit' is naive, maybe, but not trolling. I have nothing to hide and no reason to obfuscate. I'm not QUITE toolish/self-centered enough to put my resume/transcript up for all to see, but if anyone REALLY cares enough about me and my legitimacy (and they shouldn't), I'd be happy to do so via PM. But that would really be silly for all parties.


You know we do have this thing called the googles now. Nice chinbeard.

I'm sorry, I don't normally do this, but you just made it so easy

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Hand
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Hand » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:04 pm

Also this:
LetsGoMets wrote:Nice chinbeard

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Capitol_Idea » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:12 pm

hereisonehand wrote:Also this:
LetsGoMets wrote:Nice chinbeard


Ugh. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair shot - I need to update that LinkedIn pic. Cheap shot. But fair.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:33 pm

GULC can be officially removed from the T14 after this thread

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Selecting a D.C./Mid-Atlantic School

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:31 pm

zacharus85 wrote:
SpanishMain said: Sticker at GULC is ALWAYS bad. For that to be correct, the majority of people attending Georgetown would have to not end up in jobs where you could pay that off and end up with a salary/lifestyle long-term (read: 10+ years down the road) commensurate with other professional paths.


To clarify: yes, I think sticker at GULC is always bad. But I think sticker anywhere is basically always bad, even if you had a BigLaw job guaranteed in writing. Even if you know you'll get a job that'll let you make your payments, it'll involve years and years of a job that's almost universally agreed to be miserable just to get back in the black. I think that's a bad outcome. Granted, it's less bad than unemployed with sticker debt, but bad nonetheless.




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